Here’s a little history lesson:
Roger Williams founded Rhode Island and Providence Plantations in 1636 as a state of religious freedom. He had been banished from Massachusetts due to his religious beliefs and he wanted to establish a place where everyone was equal, regardless of their faith (or lack thereof).
I have lived in Rhode Island all my life. Even as someone as young as myself I have already seen frequent and flagrant disregard for our state’s history and even the law. Not to mention the countless times I have seen people go out of their way to make others feel excluded. With opposing the school prayer in my public high school, Cranston West, I have experienced a sickening amount of hostility and hatred.
And of course, we’re seeing that same mentality again this season with the feud over what to call the holiday tree displayed in the statehouse in Providence. Our governor, Lincoln Chafee, referred to the tree as a “holiday tree,” rather than a “Christmas tree” in order to be inclusive of all religions and winter holidays.
I just want to make sure I’m doing everything possible in this building to honor Roger Williams.
But apparently the governor’s decision is outraging many Rhode Islanders. And naturally, Fox News has covered the story.
I don’t know where to begin.
The Christians are pissy because the governor is being fair and politically correct. They’re mad because the government is not establishing their religion. This is not “political correctness gone haywire,” this is the way our country works, specifically Rhode Island.
They try to say that we’re taking their religion away. We’re changing Christmas! What they don’t understand is that if they insist on calling it a “Christmas tree,” they can’t put it in the government. It doesn’t work that way, children. In fact, that’s exactly what they are: children. And not smart kids, spoiled brats.
Christians: “Mommy, give me the last cookie.”
Government: “You can’t, that isn’t fair to your siblings.”
Christians: “But mom, that’s not fair! I’m the oldest and I used to get all of the cookies!”
Government: “But that isn’t fair to the others.”
Christians: “If they don’t want me to have the last cookie, they can just look away while I eat it, that way their feelings won’t be hurt.”
Government: “Honey, that still isn’t fair.”
Christians: *screams and cries and whines*
Government: “Okay, okay! I’ll give you the cookie!”
Christians: “Finally.”
This is how I see the school prayer. But now with the holiday tree, they’ve taken it to a new level.
Government: *gives cookie*
Non-Christians: “Uhm, this isn’t fair.”
Christians: “Ew, go away. Nobody wants your opinion.”
Government: “Okay, how about no one gets the cookie then.”
Non-Christians: “Yeah, that’s fair.”
Christians: “NO! I WANT THE COOKIE!”
Government: “Maybe we could split it in half?”
Christians: “NOOOO! I WANT THE WHOLE THING.”
Government: “You could have 3/4?”
Christians: “NOOO!”
Non-Christians: “I think it would be best if we just didn’t eat the cookie. It’s not really good for us anyway.”
Christians: “I want the whole cookie and if you say that I can’t have it I will be VERY offended! Are you saying that I can never eat cookies again? Are you trying to take away my love for cookies?! Well too bad! I’m going to eat that cookie anyway.”
Non-Christians: “Wait a minute, that really isn’t fair to say. Why should you get the whole cookie? You aren’t better than everyone else. And no, of course we aren’t trying to say that you can’t love cookies anymore…”
Christians: “Oh you are such a baby. Why are you making a big deal out of this!? It’s just a cookie!”
And that is how it almost always goes. The Christians want it all. They already have a tree in there, a symbol of Christmas. The governor is trying to make it more inclusive, so he calls it a holiday tree to be fair. That isn’t good enough for the spoiled kids who think they’re entitled to everything though, is it? Nope, of course not. They need to have their symbol in the government and it needs to be called a “Christmas tree” to remind everyone of how the only important winter holiday is “Christ’s birthday.” (They’re wrong about that too.)
They’ve also been accusing anyone who supports the governor of making a big deal out of something trivial. Pretty sure they were the ones who started this ridiculous feud.
And on top of it all, they’re all going to team up against the governor and bully him until he calls it a Christmas tree. Fox News keeps telling their viewers to call him and complain because I guess that’s the moral, Christian thing to do.
Despite all of this, Governor Lincoln Chafee is staying true to the state’s history, the law, and his own morals. He should be receiving support for that and not all of this unfair hate mail.
It’s a holiday tree, grow up already.
It is just amazing that these people have forgotten what this country was founded on and the constitution.
why does an atheist rewally care.. she seeems fake and wanting attention.. well.. you have it girl…good luck
pose for playboy or another magazine..at least that way you can get some money for what you do. I am not catholic or really even a christian, although i believe in higher powers than myself. really tho. you are kind of cute.. you should strip and pose for the world. a good athiest would. once you are eighteen. it will be legal. brunettes rule!!! get some money girl…use that non spiritual money maker you have and get you some money.
Classy, Dan. I can see those higher powers are working for you.
Here we see the Troglodytus Retardae in it’s natural state. Note the lack of grammar which belies a complete lack of higher education or regard thereof. Note, also, his misogynistic attitude, typical of the male Retardae.
Yuk. Dan, please tell me your “suggestion” wasn’t because you want to hoggle.
Because that is sick.
Dan, you sick pedo. Who put you up to this? I hope you rot.
Hopefully Dan you’ll become celibate and take a vow of silence.
As I Christian, I am deeply offended by your post. Not because of the issue at hand though… in fact, I completely agree with almost everything you’ve said. I think it is ridiculous and embarrassing the way that so many Christians are acting. I do not care what you call the tree. It does not effect me or my beliefs. I think it is ridiculous to think we should have prayer in schools, or even that the Church should have anything to do with government at all. I agree with you on every level.
No the reason that I’m offended is because you are lumping us all together. “The Christians are pissy” and they’re “not smart kids, spoiled brats”, and that we need to “grow up already.”
Don’t give up the high ground. Your argument is sound, you are in the right. Don’t resort to personally attacking and stereotyping all of us. We are not all the same, and personally, I think Jesus would be more pissed than anyone at the way his “followers” are living their lives these days.
But it is okay for Christians to clump Atheists together?
Perhaps, if these pissy Christians are not typical, you could go explain it to THEM.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
This argument may be over what to call a tree but why stop there Jessica with all your vast knowledge of whats good and whats bad for all of us. Why not get rid of Valentines day. Thats from a SAINT. Tell the Irish that St. Patricks day is a bad thing too. Tell the blacks they cant celebrate MLK day because he was a Revrend and he had affiliation with Jesus. Thanksgiving should be cancelled because it is a day of giving thanks to GOD for what we have all been given through him. No way should any holiday that has anything to do with religious themes or backgrounds be celebrated. In fact you need to always work on Sundays and you need to always go to school on Christmas, Thanksgiving, MLK day. Eliminate them all! God doesnt exist! But one question……. With all seriousness. What if your wrong? You may say there is no proof. But show me the proof that there isnt.
The use of the constitution to support your message is a disgrace but methodical.
One day when you or any other athiest is laying on the death bed, the question i ask of you will come. And what will you believe then? I do not wish any athiest to die early or experience any harm physical or mental.
Is it possible that the world works in perfect order with out a designer? (not humans) That all of us have been placed here just to live and die? That the solar system is a cosmic accident? To many questions and to many unknowns. How is it possible to be absolute with so many unabsolute answers???
Im Catholic and i ask these questions from time to time? For me this is where faith is found. I choose to believe because for me its the right to do. Its ok to question. Question everything. And for me it only stregnthens my belief. Without God there is no love. Without God there is no conscience. Without God there is no right or wrong. This is what our Constitution is modeled from. Gods law. Without God in the Constitution, why would it be wrong to kill? Why would it be wrong to steal? Why would it be wrong to cheat? Why would it be wrong to lie? If we are here truly to just live and die. There would be no order in any society. If all people were to feel there were no repercussions because no answering to an after life to a higher power there would be anarchy.
The elimination of God or Christ in our society is dangerous to us all. History teaches us that. From the Egyptians to Somalia.
Jessica, say a prayer of thanks to God that you live in the United States. And thank him that he was part of the Constitution and you have the freedom to say what you want and believe what you want. Because with out God in it Im not so sure you would feel safe. Those cookies are addicting and without God to spread love to all of his children. Do you really think that you can take away the addiction from so many and not feel retrobution? Again because there is God in this country you are free to say what you want and believe what you want.
Ah yes, the beautiful “Slippery Slope” logical fallacy. Nowadays people tend not to care about Valentines Day or St. Patrick’s Day’s religious roots. MLK might have been a preacher but he stood up for black rights and him being a preacher doesn’t automatically mean we should ignore him.
Also it makes me cringe when people say “say thanks to God you live in the United States” and things like “be happy you live in a country where you don’t have to say the Pledge of Allegiance” because it’s acknowledging you have the right but cannot completely exercise it. The more you have to say we are free, the more you should expect people to question it.
no slippery slope… the truth being that if you lived in a Muslim country or community anywhere outside the US and ran your mouths like you do, YOU WOULD BE DEAD! So say a prayer and thank God you dont. You live in a Christian nation that forgives you.
Oh my, TJ! Do you really think the words here form a remotely cogent argument? When you come down off your emotional anger-high you might want to return to try again. As it stands, the only thing you have shown is that you know how to play “six-degrees of Kevin Bacon” using religion.
And for the record, you would be just as DEAD as Jessica in those Muslim countries to which you refer, for believing what you say you believe here. We can all agree that American jurisprudence is therefore much better than that found in most, if not all, Muslim countries. But, I do believe you are going off on a tangent here.
Gee, how about if we lived on the moon, or maybe Saturn??? The point is WE DON”T live ia muslim country so it’s kind of asinine to say “what if”. You couldn’t be any dumber.
It’s thanks to our SECULAR, GODLESS constitution that we have the freedom that (as everyone notes) doesn’t exist in the Muslim world.
I double dog dare you to find any mention of God, Jesus, or Christianity in the United States Constitution, so you cannot attempt to give Christianity the credit for our religious freedom.
The legal foundation of this country is secular. It’s not Christian and it surely isn’t the ten commandments (five or six of which tell you how to pray and worship the God that’s not mentioned in our constitution).
“Jessica, say a prayer of thanks to God that you live in the United States. And thank him that he was part of the Constitution and you have the freedom to say what you want and believe what you want. ”
Christ was NOT part of the constitution. Nor is there any reference to “God” in the constitution.
If you can find such a reference in the US constitution I will shut up but you are flat out wrong on this and I wish to hell someone would put shock collars on every Christian and zap them when they repeat this SHAMELESS LIE.
The United States Constitution does mention God. In Article VII, the Constitution states:
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth….
Thank you, Tully. Now, perhaps, Steve will do as he says.
Also, Steve, your last line suggests violence against Christians. My, how tolerant of you, oh enlightened one!
Hardly. I put “God” in quotes for a reason.
I knew about “In the Year of Our Lord”. Which was simply the standard formal way of naming the year.
It has no more actual religious significance than the names of the week, which refer to the pagan gods Saturn, Tiu, Wotan, Thor, and Frey (and also the Sun and the Moon).
Shock collars? Yes. I am irritated at the constant repetition of the BLATANT LIE that the Constitution is based on Christianity. I was intemperate and I apologize. But I hate liars, and there are so many of them on the Christian side in this debate.
Oh, I guess I’d better amplify. I put “God” in quotes not for emphasis but because it was a direct quote: that specific word doesn’t appear.
>>Without God there is no love. Without God there is no conscience. Without God there is no right or wrong. This is what our Constitution is modeled from. Gods law. Without God in the Constitution, why would it be wrong to kill? Why would it be wrong to steal? Why would it be wrong to cheat? Why would it be wrong to lie? If we are here truly to just live and die. There would be no order in any society. If all people were to feel there were no repercussions because no answering to an after life to a higher power there would be anarchy.<<
See, that – that's the sort of thing that annoys the hell out of me. Theists assuming that things such as “love”, “morals”, “law” only have a basis in religion. To few of them have never looked into the question beyond simply repeating the statements they make. To few of them have ever bothered to actually think it through. Love? Have a chat to Wittgenstein about the word and then get back to us. Morals? The arrogance of somebody to say that morals are somehow removed from human thought and capability is simply repugnant. Moreover, it also ignores simple logic.
The idea that the US constitution was in any way inspired by or derived from religious ideals simply shows an abject failure of understanding of history. I could point someone to Locke, but what’s the point: they don’t want to hear about it.
Which brings us full circle really. Theists aren’t the problem, per se. Theism is. Specifically, organized theism.
Only comment I need to make. MLK Day is not just for the “blacks” as you put it. It is for anyone that believed in civil rights. If you are “white” and don’t that is your problem, but don’t say it is a “black” holiday. That is just plain ignorant.
TJ said: “Without God there is no conscience. Without God there is no right or wrong. This is what our Constitution is modeled from. Gods law. Without God in the Constitution, why would it be wrong to kill?”
it’s nice to know you are just one imaginary friend away from a homicidal rage… am i supposed to take comfort from that?
TJ said: “Without God there is no conscience. Without God there is no right or wrong. This is what our Constitution is modeled from. Gods law. Without God in the Constitution, why would it be wrong to kill?”
It is funny how 99.8% of people in prison are theists…. where was their god when they were committing crimes? Why isn’t the prison population more representative of the amount of athiests in the USA? In fact, by that logic, you would think that every athiest would be in prison.
renosis – this is so typical an atheist-type response. 99.8% of crimes are committed by theists. Where on earth did you dream up such a ridiculous statistic?
Anyone inside for a crime has automatically broken one of the 10 commandments. It doesn’t invalidate the commandments of God, it shows man to be intrinsically sinful. Such people live as though God did not exist, this is hardly a hallmark of genuine faith!
“Where on earth did you dream up such a ridiculous statistic?”
Well the real statistic is 84% Christian, and 0.2% Atheist. In fact any nation or state that is religious, has more crime and less quality education and health, go figure.
“Anyone inside for a crime has automatically broken one of the 10 commandments”
Not if they rape. Or order genocide. Or deal drugs. etc.
Also most laws go against the 10 commandments, like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and child protection laws. There are also no laws against adultery, or working on the sabbath, or coveting your neighbor’s house, etc (a crime for thinking? That is unjust). Furthermore, soldiers are legally allowed to kill. And is stealing a loaf of bread when you and your family is starving really that bad?
All 10 commandments are useless and irrelevant, which is understandable since they are thousands of years out of date.
It’s also funny that the Bible specifically condemns the Christmas tree, saying that it’s a vain custom of evil pagans. (See Jeremiah 10:3-5. God hates Christmas trees.) I’m not at all surprised that Faux News decided to go apeshit about this, and fuel the fire that is their fictional War on Christmas.
Wow, you should get your facts straight before you make a un-educated comment: That is one of the most misunderstood pieces of scripture in the bible. It is not talking about a xmas tree. It’s talking about making an idol from wood or a tree.
They deck it with silver and with gold,…. Cover it with plates of silver and gold, for the sake of ornament, that it may look grand, majestic, and venerable; and by this means draw the eye and attention, and so the devotion of people to it:
they fasten it with nails and hammers, that it move not. The sense is, either that the idol was fastened to some post or pillar, or in some certain place on a pedestal, that it might not fall, it not being able otherwise to support itself; or the plates of silver and gold, as Kimchi thinks, were fastened to the idol with nails and hammers, that so they might not be taken away from it; for, were it not for the nails, the god would not be able to keep his silver and golden deckings.
The prophet shows the glory of Israel’s God, and exposes the folly of idolaters. Charms and other attempts to obtain supernatural help, or to pry into futurity, are copied from the wicked customs of the heathen. Let us stand in awe, and not dare provoke God, by giving that glory to another which is due to him alone. He is ready to forgive, and save all who repent and believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ. Faith learns these blessed truths from the word of God; but all knowledge not from that source, leads to doctrines of vanity.
However Christmas trees are ‘heathen’. Pagans who worshipped trees, bringing them indoors and decorating them, brought the custom with them when they converted to Christianity.
The bringing in of trees and decorating them, is not set out in the bible – it is solely a pagan custom.
In fact, the whole idea of celebrating Jesus’ birth is not a biblical holiday. There is nothing within the bible’s pages commanding its celebration. Most of the customs surrounding Christmas and Easter are heathen.
Lets get this right, Jeff: what you are saying is: the Bible did not say that the Christmas tree is evil, but it did say the crucifix in the church is?
Why do people care? The whole discussion is such a waste of time. I’m atheist but tired of both extremes. It’s a pagan fertility symbol, yeah, but it’s also a Christmas tree.
If people spent half the time they do arguing about these things actually making the world a better place, that would be cool in my book.
This isn’t about two extremes, it’s about one side whining and complaining that they’re not getting enough special treatment and the privilege they have isn’t enough, while the other side is defending the governor’s decision, which really shouldn’t need defending in this day and age, considering we have the Constitution.
At any rate, this post was very well-written, Jessica. I plan on writing about this fake controversy, but you’ve touched on points that I probably wouldn’t have.
At what point will the government finally decide to abide by the First Amendments Establishment Clause of religious neutrality? If we allow the religious right to keep making blatant violations of the Establishment Clause, and continue to go unchecked or unchallenged, then we might as well be living in a Theocracy. It is our duty, our job as citizens of this great nation to uphold our most precious of freedoms from the ignorant fanatical masses that would destroy them.
>At what point will the government finally decide to abide by the First Amendments Establishment Clause of religious neutrality?
It will be a while. Gotta get that church stuff off our money first. http://www.godoffmoney.com/
Actually the establishment clause specifies that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof” What it means is pretty simple, Congress can’t declare that a specific church or religion is the official tax-supported religion of the United States. The founders wanted to avoid a situation like existed with the Church of England where the Head of State was also the Head of the Church. That’s it. At no time does the establishment clause prohibit the Ten Commandments or Prayer or any other religious expression from being present in government buildings or in public schools or anywhere else. It means nothing more and nothing less than there isn’t going to be a Church of America like the Church of England. Ironic that one little phrase from a letter by Thomas Jefferson to a group of Baptists could be so warped and twisted to exclude all religious expression or symbols from the public square.
Christmas is a secular holiday with christian and pagan roots – just like Easter and Halloween.
Jess, you know that I think you’re awesome, but I have to disagree with you. I am a Christian and celebrate Christmas and whatever, but I don’t think that this is a big deal. Also, plenty of people (like me) celebrate Christmas without all of the religious stuff. It’s really more of a capitalist holiday rather than a Christian one. If the state house doesn’t want to offend people, then don’t put up a friggen tree. I still don’t see why what they call it matters though. Maybe I’m just being stupid. I don’t care if they want to call it a Kwanzaa tree, or a winter solstice bush, we have more important things to worry about then what the governor wants to call a tree.
> “… I don’t think that this is a big deal.”
Good thing you don’t speak for everyone, then.
I’m new to this blog and I’ve got to say, you make other athiests look bad with the way you rant. Your opinion is your opinion though, neither christians or athiests are wrong here, to each their own. There’s christians who use “xmas” and athiests who say “christmas tree”. So looks like each side has issues.
I prefer “christmas tree” because to me, “holiday tree” doesn’t represent just christmas, but ANY occasion, since there’s more than 1 holiday…
Jeremiah 10:3-5
You totally missed the point. It’s about Christians and Right-Wing media making a big stink over Government officials doing something correctly. Christians are violating our country’s/state’s principles while claiming that other people are doing that.
First of all, a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree. There is no “holiday tree” and never has been. Changing the name of it is merely pandering to would-be fame seekers much like yourself who want to get their 15 minutes in the spotlight and achieve immortality through newspaper articles and TV interviews by standing up for some fabricated “rights” issue. That’s what Christians are fighting against…the pathetic pandering.
Anyway,Jessica, I have a question. Had it been a prayer from any other faith, like an Islamic prayer for instance, would you have still raised a stink and demanded it been removed?
Or is it just the fact that it was a reference to Christianity that got your goat?
Just wondering.
Janine, the tree was pagan before it was christian. Just so you understand that the holiday tree existed before christians took it over.
If you were to convince the governor it should be called a Christmas Tree, you would merely cause the tree to be removed. The government shall not endorse ANY religion, it’s in the Constitution. Calling it a Holiday Tree is a way to keep a celebratory tree witout excluding anyone.
Does your religion require you to override the Constitution? Does your religion require you to be insulting to 16 year olds? Calling her a fame seeker, when she asked the school to remove it without a lawsuit, so they could spare themselves the expense of losing, is just mean spirited.
Jessica stood up for everyone by doing what she did. Including christians.
As you presumable know, christians come in many variations, some are hateful (Westboro Baptists), some are oppressive (mormons), some are violent (abortion clinic bombers, the norwegian terrorist), some are whacky (Harry Camping), many are immoral (catholic priests, mega church leaders), most are hypocrites (personal observation), many are bullies (just read the threats directed by CHRISTIANS at Jessica), many are uneducated (read the posts here), and some are christian in name only.
The Separation of Church and State protects us ALL from ALL of them.
Jessica is right, kids. It wouldn’t make a hill of beans to me what they call it, except for how Christians react to calling it a holiday tree! Clearly, there’s a strong religious aspect to it.
No this is completely not true, prayer is prohibited in schools because the government wants to be politically correct. In the public school where the little boy i babysit for goes ( Peace dale Elementary school) there is a book ” stories of budha” If this were “stories of Jesus” it would be chucked out. He learns Hanukkah songs but he is not allowed to suggest a Christmas carol…
Stop lying. You have not seen anything about Jesus in the books in that school. You’re just speculating b/c you’re a religious moron. [And yes, religion makes you dumb.]
And people wonder why Christians have a problem with atheists…
> “No this is completely not true, prayer is prohibited in schools because the government wants to be politically correct.”
Are you lying or just ignorant? Or both?
Prayer is *ABSOLUTELY* allowed in schools. Any student can pray to his or her heart’s content, as long as he/she isn’t disruptive.
The school *CANNOT* have an official prayer (Engel v. Vitale) or force other students to listen to a prayer (Abington School District v. Schempp). Prayer cannot legally be part of any school function (the 4th District court ruled that “a moment of silence” is okay in BROWN v. GILMORE).
Well it’s a good thing the world doesn’t have real problems that we could be talking about…
Would you call a menorah the “Holiday Candle”?
No. It’s a Christmas tree. It is what it is and stop crying. Find some real problems to tackle.
See Jeremiah 10:3-5
So your argument is don’t bother speaking out against this illegal act because it isn’t a “real” problem?
That’s an awesome argument. I’m going to subscribe to your newsletter today.
We have high unemployment and a broken economy? That’s not a “real” problem; try again.
We’re still at war? That’s not a “real” problem; try again.
We’re keeping people locked up without charges and we torture them? That’s not a “real” problem; try again.
Um, my city is running out of cash and has to close libraries and reduce public services? That’s not a “real” problem; try again.
Ahh, police forces across the nation are downsizing? That’s not a “real” problem; try again.
Er, schools are laying off teachers because they’re not funded adequately? That’s not a “real” problem; try again.
Hmm. We can fund the Defense Department 54 cents out of every Federal budget dollar, but we can’t repair our crumbling infrastructure, reduce everyone’s healthcare bills, give everyone who wants to work a job, insure we all breathe clean air and drink clean water, etc.? That’s not a “real” problem; try again.
Trollscore: 10/10. Winner!
TastyLint, are you an idiot? Look up sarcasm you dolt.
I feel like a lot of the people commenting aren’t familiar with what’s been going on. The governor wants to call it a holiday tree, and another general assembly (one woman in particular) is insisting that it be called a tree. You can’t just pass resolutions telling people what to call a decoration. That’s what has people angry.
Insisting that it be called a Christmas tree*
Roger Williams believed in god…
Which one?
LOL little girl, you are so ignorant. CHRISTMAS is Jesus’s birthday you friggen moron. Just like Kwanza and all the other holidays have it’s own significance. I dont know if your half a retard or not but christmas usually has a CHRISTMAS TREE! WOWWW its not a holiday tree because not all holidays have a friggen tree in it. And also you called your christian peers spoiled brats? Maybe you should check your sources cause I’m pretty sure most of us are hard working children. We dont sit on our ass all day on a blog writing our thoughts. How about you go and do something productive with your life instead of making a website with all your feelings that maybe 15% of the population gives a shit. Thanks sweetie xox
Jesus was not born on Christmas. The Church “moved” the date of his birth to December 25 so they could take the Winter Solstice away from pagans.
How is activism not being productive? It’s practically synonymous of productivity. Furthermore, how is flaming on another’s blog being productive? Go share your message of hate elsewhere, preferably on a theist’s blog.
What about Jeremiah 10:3-5?
HAHAHA you must be the biggest faggot alive. You completely missed the issue and brought up points that have nothing to do with the argument. Religion has made you a very stupid human.
Oh, look…here’s a supposedly “more intelligent” and “more tolerant” atheist who is not only bashing Christians, but is also using a derogatory term against gay people.
And people say Christians are hypocrites…
Have you read the hundreds of christian threats made against Jessica? You find the one troll who identifies as an atheist, and you decide that’s who you want to respond to?
Yes, let’s compare atheist intolerance to christian intolerance. Let’s only count those whose intolerance led to loss of life:
Christian intolerance includes witchburnings, genocide, crusades.
Atheists killing in the name of atheism: none.
15% of the population is actually quite a lot of people. Are you sure that’s what you meant to say?
> “How about you go and do something productive with your life instead of making a website with all your feelings that maybe 15% of the population gives a shit. ”
And yet, here you are, reading it and posting a comment.
Trollscore: 0/10
I agree with Cliff your a foolish high-school student with not enough going on in your life. Find something productive to do instead of sharing your ignorant statements. Clearly coming from a single parent house hold and I don’t even know you-just to obivious. Everyone’s entitled to an opinion. So you want your children learning about all these foreign religions cause it makes your child “well-rounded” or do you want your child learning what this nation was built around. A prayer is just a prayer regardless what religion and your school prayer had zero basis around any religion in paticular just asumptions it’s catholic. Prayer is to bring people together not have smug ignorant kids pick a side and debate about it. Your not a politic, your not intelligent. Your just someone who thinks to highly of themselves with to much free time on their hands.
By the way I’m athiest. And you and your opinions are what give people who don’t believe in religion a smug, ignorant, reflected self-hate perception were labeled with. Sickening..
Haha. The irony of you claiming another’s lack of intelligence in a rant filled with incoherence, grammatical errors, and atrocious spelling is truly amazing. There is no way you could possibly be an atheist. Your buzzwords and use of your versus you’re are true American Fundamentalist memes.
Why are Fundamentalist Christians usually so dishonest? Could it be because their entire worldview is based on the most ridiculous lie ever fomented?
Prayer is not prohibited in American schools. It is specifically allowed under The Constitution. The distinction is that schools may not lead the prayer. That is specifically not allowed under The Constitution. Imagine a Theocracy in America. Which sect or schism of Christianity would lead the charge? As Roger Smith and William Penn found, as The Founders knew, and as our history has shown, the only way for Christianity to flourish is to allow each individual to create their god in their own image.
The Colonies were formed by many different sects and schisms of Christians (among others) who came to this land to escape religious persecution, from other Christians. Once established, the bloody Christian on Christian crime continued in this country, except in Rhode Island and Pennsylvania. Create an American Theocracy and the resultant bloody religious war of Christian against Christian would be the war to end all wars and be the death of Christianity in this country. No one want sto be told how to worship. The now secular countries of Europe with established state religions have proven this.
Hmm I’ve double checked all posts… Please point out my incoherence and errors. Thanks!
You DID notice he was replying to someone named John, right? Not to somebody named Cliff?
Yeah, John I am sure you are an atheist, I am willing to bet that you can not recite the Atheist Creed.
If you were actually an atheist and not a liar [it's really obvious, moron] you would be smart enough to keep your gayass mouth shut.
Christian privilege *is* a real problem to tackle — it’s at the root of a lot of other problems, like opposition to gay rights, women’s rights, and the teaching of sound science — and it can’t be tackled if nobody points at it and laughs at just how ridiculous it is, like Jessica has done here.
Great writing. Keep it up.
I hope you caught The Daily Show on this. It was pretty entertaining. If not, here’s the link:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-december-6-2011/tree-fighting-ceremony—war-on-christmas
Dear Jessica, If there were a Muslim prayer or icon on your school… Tell me something, would you oppose it so publicly?
Something tells me no. I rest my case.
I bet you’ll be Christmas shopping this week though.
Love, Me
Wow, a genuine mind-reader! He actually (claims that he) knows what Jessica is thinking, and what she’ll be doing in the future! Tell you what, Cliff: you go and prove your amazing powers to the James Randi Foundation under controlled conditions and claim the $1 million they’re offering!
Moron.
Thanks for making this particular bit of idiocy a little more visible, Jessica. A pity a few posters here Just Don’t Get It.
I could name call too but it would be far too easy to stoop down to your level. You obviously have no argument.
So, Miss Alhquist, will you be Christmas shopping this season? My gut tells me yes.
Idiocy… Because a spoiled brat wants to change decades of tradition people are upset… That’s idiocy? No, in this economy with all the war and death going on around us, choosing THIS battle… Now THAT’S idiocy.
Merry CHRISTmas!
CHRISTmas is but once a year.
Sunday — Sun’s day
Monday — Moon’s day
Tuesday — Tiu’s day
Wednesday — Woden’s day
Thursday — Thor’s day
Friday — Freya’s day
Saturday — Saturn’s day
Our entire week is filled with symbols of pagan and Norse worship! Clearly my gods are superior to yours.
brb woden’s day shopping
Considering that all of Christmas’s traditions are originally pagan, that’s not that much of an insult at all. Educate yourself, boy.
Ok Sarah.
Yes, I think she would have done it, as she has shown, she is not scared of you theists. Treasonous bunch of louts.
What a dumbass. Do you actually not know ANYTHING about logical arguments? Your whole statement is based on a logical fallacy, which makes you a fucking retard for stating your opinion.
Wow, that is the most pathetic use of a Strawman I’ve seen in a while.
Trollscore: 2/10
You’re all so brilliant. If she ever attacked the Quran she’d death threats galore. We all know she’d never DARE attack the Muslim religion.
Death threats?
Wow. Congratulations. That is actually worse (but only slightly) than the things that have been threatened and wished upon her already by Christians. Oh, wait, maybe I _did_ see a death threat or two from a Christian.
Like this one, perhaps:
http: jessicaahlquist.com christian-love #comment-9865
After being raped, having bibles shoved down her throat (probably the big study bibles, not the little dinky ones with that embarrassing old testament left out), the commenter wants her left for dead.
Who is worse, the Muslim Taliban, or the Christian one?
People often forget the idea of the commercial Christmas includes the idea of a Christmas tree. It is ridiculous that we freak out over the simple thought of a tree?! Arbor Day includes a tree and we don’t see people freaking out over that do we?Yes, I do realize that Arbor day isn’t about religion but now-a-days neither is Christmas anymore. Let’s be honest, most of you even reading this comment regardless of religion (unless you’re Jewish or heavily of another religion) celebrate Christmas whether you’re christian or not because it’s not the religious Christmas you were raised on. You were probably taught the idea of the red Santa produced by Coca-cola. People forget that Santa, as we like to refer to him, is actually a version of Saint Nicholas from the original story from christianity. And just to end this, this is coming from someone who is Agnostic who is co-writing this with a Roman Catholic and agreeing on this whole post. Thanks :-*-Hp&lex<3
You know, as a Canadian I’d like to laugh at such silliness in the US, but BS like this happens North of the 49th Parallel as well.
http://wpgragreview.blogspot.com/2011/12/winnipeg-sun-takes-page-from-bill.html
I came here just to say congratulations on your win. Our justice system worked, in this case. Keep up the good work.
Just found out about your struggle and this site. Keep up the good fight. You did not only what you thought was right, but was actually right, and your victory today solidifies this. You rock!
(From Chicago, IL)
You’re a source of pride for all who treasure reason and responsibility. Thank you so much for all you’ve done!
I just came here to congratulate you! It takes enormous courage to do the right thing and face a fearsomely vast opposition. You are an inspiration to the many people all over the world who are afraid to speak their mind and stand up for the truth, because it is not in parallel with the dominating community!
Hi Jessica,
I came across your blog and your story from a youtube video I was sent. I don’t usually comment on these blogs because I find they’re usually just an exercise in mud slinging, but I thought in your case I’d make an exception.
In my country, most people are atheist or agnostic. Despite the statistics, people who say they are ‘Christian’ usually don’t go to church, or read the bible, but often have grandparents or relatives who are – so they say they are Christian in the way you might call yourself Irish if you had some Irish heritage!
I just wanted to let you know that the whole world doesn’t believe in God, and there are places where people of different ethnicities and beliefs are tolerated.
From the outside, in countries like Australia, the UK and New Zealand where I am from, we look upon the USA as a country of conservative Christians, with hypocritical views and extreme beliefs – which are often imposed on others. I understand the teachings of Jesus were to be good to your neighbour, but it sounds like a lot of the religious people in your community have ignored that.
If you lived where I am from, you would be the norm. People wouldn’t make fun of you for being an atheist! In fact, I can remember when I was in primary school – some of the uber religious kids were often isolated because of their conservative values.
I guess what I’m trying to get at is that the majority of people in your town are small minded, conservative religious zealots, but just because it happens in the US, doesn’t mean it happens anywhere else. When you get old enough, travel, see the world, go to Europe, Australia, Asia, New Zealand (!) and you will see that you are not a minority, and that there are places that are a lot more tolerant than the USA, despite the propaganda you are fed about being a ‘free’ country.
Anyway good luck!
Amen to this post. There are crazies in Canada as well, but I’m currently living in Sweden and while there are some religious types, it’s not nearly so predominant. The world is a bigger place than most Americans think it is.
Just wanted to agree with these posts. I live in the UK where atheism is almost taken as normal now. We still celebrate Christmas as a family holiday and the presents are simple ways of showing love to family members. Religion has nothing to to do with it and doesn’t need to.
I have to agree that when you get the chance, you should travel a little, see the world, I read a recent stat that said that Two thirds of Americans don’t even have a passport, which from a Europeans point of view is crazy! The world’s a huge place, and most of it is much more tolerant than the Gun toting, god fearing, obesity crisis, debt ridden, warmongering, US of A.
Congratulations on your victory in Rhode Island!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/federal-court-sides-with-ri-atheist-student-and-orders-public-school-to-remove-prayer-mural/2012/01/11/gIQANO9LsP_story.html
Good job, young lady.
Don’t let the bastards get you down.
Why is it only Christians you are bashing on? From my understanding your in a diverse area. Why not bash other religions? Your full of it. Why not direct your energy towards something more important? It’s so cool to bash on god and everything this country was founded on. You are so cool Jessica. Wow. I bet you are real popular now. You have all your supporters online.. What’s next for you? What other traditions are you gonna bring down? All because you’re oh so offended.
Ummm, Tara? “everything this country was founded on” includes, as Jessica noted in her post, the idea that the government has NO BUSINESS TELLING PEOPLE WHAT THEIR BELIEFS SHOULD BE. Seems to me that Ms. Ahlquist is doing an excellent job of upholding a key element of what makes America great.
On the other hand, Tara, I think that Thomas Jefferson and the other founders would be very disappointed in you.
Seem to me that any person in America who goes against the constitution should be considered to be a traitor. I think they have very has penalties for traitors, especially in times of war. You are of course in a war with terrorism, so folk like Tara should be locked up for treason.
How do you like those apples, Tara?
Here’s why you’re a moronic skank.
“In God We Trust”- Only came about in 1956.
“…under God..” in the pledge, 1954.
Since you most likely aren’t smart enough to know, that’s long after the country was founded.
The separation of church and state was incipient to the formation of the US government.
I can’t tell you how goddamn stupid you sound by telling someone who is supporting the founding principles of this country that they are bashing them.
To reiterate, you’re fucking dumb. You speak without thinking or researching. You’re also fucking dumb.
and here I thought only repuklicans resorted to name calling
@Tara,
“What’s popular isn’t always right and what’s right isn’t always popular.” Jessica sttod up for what was right, even though it wasn’t popular. Are you standing up for what is popular?(Christianity is certainly “popular” in the US these days. It is also quite unpopular to tell people that you believe in another religion, especially if it is not one of the mono-theistic “big three” (Christianity, Islam and Judaeism), even moreso when a person admits to being an Atheist or Humanist, Free-thinker or Non-believer.
I am a Humanist. I believe every individual has the right to believe whatever helps them sleep better at night, as long as they don’t INFLICT it upon others. How you choose to get your Seritonin kick is up to you. (Big Think Blogs, Religion was created by man because that belief triggers an increase in Seratonin in the brain. Seratonin is the “feel-good chemical” your brain creates when you feel joy.)
But the Government does not have the same rights as an individual for what it displays on it’s property. Jessica knew this and was willing to confront the vile hatred inflicted upon her to bring this to fruition. (Thank you Jessica!!)
Would you want to go to your school and see anything praising Zeus, Woden, a Hindu goddess or god, a quote from the Qaran praising Allah and the prophet Mohammed? You would insist upon the same first amendment’s separation of church and state. Voiciferously, I bet.
From what I have read of her blog, Jessica is a wonderful, intelligent, & critical-thinking young woman who sees the world with eyes and mind wide open, instead of filled with the presumptions of opinion based upon ancient texts.
Jessica, I applaude your decision to stand up for what was right, lawful and just, in spite of the knee-jerk backlash from the closed-minded people around you, and the tenacity to stand fast, to refuse to back down in the face of their intimidation. I am glad that the SSA found you, and that you have found the millions-strong citizenry of non-believers in this country is not constrained to your family and friends in RI. Have you read “Good Without God” by Greg Epstein? It is a wonderful Humanist voice of reason & logic that finally gave me a name for my beliefs.
It is also not one to bash others for their beliefs, which I find distasteful in the Anti-theistic segment of Atheism. It gives me the ability to still champion the rights of individuals who believe in less common beliefs with respect and without compromising my own belief that there is no god, goddess or any other supernatural beings.
The more I read “Good without God”, the more vocal and outspoken I have become, knowing I am not alone in my beliefs. Welcome to the wonderful community of non-believers.
Kat
Tara,
Just a quick note here… Everything this country was founded on? Most of the original Founding Fathers of this country were Unitarians or Universalists, who are not combined into Unitarian Universalist religion. This Country was founded on the basis of Free Speech and Freedom OF Religion (or in some cases Freedom FROM Religion). Pay attention in History.. or go back and take it again. Jess hasn’t bashed Christians… she is against a STATE Supported and ENDORSED Religion. BIG DIFFERENCE….
Christian Privilege from Austin Cline’s webpage About.Atheism.
Just some more ammo for you to use or not. Keep the faith, grin.
Christian Privileges for Holidays & Holy Days:
* Many stores take the Christian sabbath into account
* Most Christians don’t have to work on their holiest days
* Christians can assume they will see TV specials and hear music related to their holidays
* Christians can erect Christian holiday displays without fearing vandalism
* Christians expect to be greeted with references to their holidays (Merry Christmas)
* Christians can ignore and be ignorant of other religions’ holidays
* School events will probably address Christian holidays
Christian Privileges in American Culture:
* When traveling, Christians can assume they’ll find churches of their denomination
* It’s easy for Christians to find a religious site to marry
* Christians easily find Christian movies, radio programs, and TV shows
* When someone talks about or thanks God, Christians can assume it’s their god
* Christians will find Bibles in their hotel rooms
* Christians have many Christian charities to donate to or get assistance from
* Christians needn’t worry about finding foods to meet religious dietary requirements
Christian Privileges against Discrimination and Bigotry:
* Christians can assume that they won’t be discriminated against because of their religion
* Christians can assume that their opinion won’t be ignored because of their religion
* Christians need not worry about moving to a place where Christians aren’t welcome
* Christians rarely encounter groups that exclude Christians
* Christians don’t worry about revealing their religion to parents, friends
* Christians can discriminate in ways not otherwise allowed & avoid members of other religions
Christian Privileges in Schools:
* Christian children will see other Christians in lessons about history
* Christian children will participate in events relating to Christian holy days
* Christian children will find or easily start school clubs dedicated to Christianity
* Christian athletes are encouraged by Christian coaches
* Christian children might avoid being exposed to foreign religions
* Public school space is often shared with Christian churches
* Christians can easily find private schools that cater to their religion
Christian Privilege, Fear, and Security:
* Christians can wear Christian clothing or jewelry without fear
* Christians can promote their religion on cars or houses without fear of vandalism
* Christians don’t have to educate their kids about persecution for their own protection
* Christians can ignore the language and customs of other religions without censure
* Christians need not worry if their religion will hinder their professional ambitions
* Christians don’t have to worry about hate groups dedicated to wiping out Christianity
Christian Privileges in the Community:
* Many communities have names with Christian origins
* Christians can assume that most neighbors & coworkers are Christian
* Christians have directories of Christian-owned businesses
* Christian businesses can hire all Christians without trying
* Christians can criticize Christianity & Christian Privilege with more authority than non-Christians and without their motives being questioned
* Christians can assume that almost anywhere they go and anything they do, they’ll feel normal
Christian Privileges with Christianity:
* Christians aren’t expected to speak for all Christians or everyone in a denomination
* Whatever Christians do, they need not worry that it will reflect poorly on Christianity
* Christians easily shop for items related to Christianity, even in specialty Christian stores
* Successful Christians aren’t told that they are greedy because of their religion
* The word “Christian” is treated as a label representing the best human attributes
Christian Privileges in the Law:
* Where relevant, laws take the Christian sabbath (Sunday) into account
* Laws & regulations come with built-in exemptions for Christians & Christian beliefs.
* Christians can assume that most politicians are Christians who represent Christian interests
* Christians can criticize the government or society without being labeled cultural outsiders
* Christians can assume that politicians won’t attack their religion
* Christians assume that government prayers will be Christian in nature (they usually are)
I Love this!
Thank you, Mike!
Going to that site right now…
Kat (just a Humanist stuck in a very LDS town)
Jessica, your cookie analogy was brilliant. Congratulations on the court decision! It’s ridiculous in this day and age that we still need to be fighting over the separation of church and state. You’ve done well – and you’ve done good!
I adore intelligent, tough, and self-confident women. But you appear to be one of a kind. This is not a compliment – it is just what I think.
With that being said, yeah, in good ol’ America, people still know what’s important. People starving to death, being bullied, politically and religiously persecuted, tortured, manhandled, raped and killed, environmental pollution, wars because of greed and selfishness? – Trivial matters! If we do not return to call a certain tree a ‘Christmas tree’, we may well witness the world’s demise in the near future!
Seriously, there is only one question I need to ask these people making such a fuss about the matter: What THE HELL is wrong with you?! o.O
You should be ashamed of yourself. Five dollars says that if the banner had anything to do with being Muslim, you wouldn’t say a damn word. Way to pick an easy fight.
Too bad Christian’s aren’t as extremist.
Hope you’re proud of being an idiot.
A million dollars says that if she stood up against a Muslim banner you’d consider her a hero. If you think she wouldn’t stand up against a Muslim banner, then you absolutely don’t understand where she’s coming from and just wish to spew your bile. I hope you are proud of being ignorant.
No if she stood up against a Muslim banner I’d still think she’s an idiot who needs to find something to do with herself. But let’s face it, she’d be too terrified to stand up to a Muslim banner… you and I know it…
Interesting though, this talk of scholarships being set up for her huh? Maybe she’s not as stupid as the world thinks?
Cliff, the people who think Jessica is an idiot are few and far between, you just happen to be one of them. And just because you wouldn’t have the balls to stand up for what’s right, doesn’t mean you should assume others don’t.
Jessica has already proven she’s able to stand up for what’s right in spite of bullying and threats, and in spite of school administrators willing to lie under oath while defending a prayer banner that recommends honesty.
Based on her track record, I’d give her the benefit of the doubt that she would have stood up against a muslim banner. But I doubt the religious fanatics howling that religion is being infringed upon would have given a damn for the rights of muslims in that case. Of course, I admit that that is speculation. I could be wrong. But I don’t think so, lol.
If there had been a Muslim banner, the Christians would’ve taken it down before she had a chance.
You’re still arguing using logical fallacies, dumbass. She’s saying she would get rid of any religion, because the country was founded on separation of religion and government. Again, you’re the dumbest faggot alive.
LOL with every post I read from you, I think everyone on both sides knows who the true idiot is.
Yes, we do.
While SmarterThanYou is winning no contests on the “intellectual rigor” front, you are certainly giving them a damn good run for their money. Keep going with the mind-reading claims. It’s really helping your position so much.
No, really. Trust me. It is.
I was recently made aware of all the controversy around you and this lawsuit – and I only have this to say…regardless of what anyone’s beliefs are, the children of the Cranston School District are the ones who will pay the ultimate price in all this. While I’m sure you feel satisfied that you “won”, your classmates have lost and will continue to lose more money from an already strapped school budget as a result of this.
And on a side note, I read that there has been a generous educational trust set up for you through the AHA…so we are all left to wonder if you will actually accept the money that reads on it “In God We Trust”.
That’s the school administration’s fault for taking up a fight they should have known they would lose.
money should NOT have the god word printed on it because it is against the Bill of Rights.
everyone should work to get that ridiculous phrase off money printed by the government.
Casey, if that really happens, it’s the school district’s fault for fighting this rather than taking down the banner in the first place, when it was clearly unconstitutional. Why did they focus on that instead of what really matters for the children in that district?
Shame on you for trying to deflect blame to her
That was only added to money in 1954, dumbass. Typical religious dumbass, doesn’t use facts or research, just spouts shit out of his mouth.
Not to call you out but. It has technically been on our coins since 1864, and was added to paper money in 1957. http://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx
You’re a mean atheist… just saying
BTW, if you’re a hypocrite, then no doubt you’ll tell me not to label you like you do the religious people (or ignore me which is fine too, I really don’t care)
both sides are going to have verbal wars with each other, no doubt, but it doesn’t make their own sides look any better
Some activists take a sharpie and cross off “In God We Trust”. GodOffMoney.com used to sell rubber stamps for this.
This also lets you express your support for freedom of all religions to anyone who handles those dollars after you.
I’m a fellow Rhode Islander (Warwick) and atheist. I just read about you in an FFRF news letter and just wanted to say I support you completely and I’m proud to have someone like you in our state.
You should be very proud of yourself. Don’t let ignorant comments insulting you bother you. They obviously don’t really understand the reason for the separation of church and state. They are stirred up by Fox News’ fictional war on Christmas. They don’t realize that religious freedom is meant for everyone. They attack you and call themselves the victims. They think they are standing up for god and that’s what god wants them to do. In other words, they are just ignorant. They don’t realize that in standing up for the First Ammendment, you are standing up for their religious freedom as well. They mean well, but they’re, well, mean. They just don’t understand.
There are those of us who think you’re awesome and fully understand where you’re coming from and support you. Keep on being awesome!
Now while I do not feel that the Christmas tree is what symbolizes Christmas it is in fact the celebration of Christ’s birth that the day is celebrating I woul like to defend the Christmas Tree. Here is a news flash NO OTHER RELIGION besides religions that celebrate Christmas put up a tree and place gifts under it to be opened on December 25th. Therefore the tree is associated with Christmas and no other holiday. No one goes around telling people to take down their Menorah or trying to rename it to make others feel less discriminated. STOP dining this with the tree. It is in fact a Christmas tree as those that celebrate Christmas are the only ones that use it! It does not represent winter holidays it represents one holiday Christmas!! You don’t have to like that that is what it is called but at least respect others beliefs the way you want people to respect yours don’t be a hypocrit.
Wrong. I’m Pagan and I put up a tree in December. It’s a very old PAGAN tradition to use evergreen and holly around your house to decorate with. Most of what you’re calling “Christmas” is technically Pagan in origin. The only things surrounding Christmas which would be Christian in nature would be nativity scenes and crosses. Seriously, you don’t have to be a Christian to like candy, or eating a lot of food, or drinking wine, or pretty lights, or sparkly ornaments. Those things are NOT Christian objects, merely “holiday” activities. Anyway, the point of the evergreen tree (yes we Pagans decorate OURS too LOL) is to symbolize the promise that the Spring is coming and that all is NOT dead in the world, as it appears to be in the winter EXCEPT for evergreen and holly. We hold our celebration on the 21st of December (those of us who practice Yule at least, those who observe Saturnalia its several days but all surrounding that particular date) which is the winter solstice. Its the longest night of the year and from that day on, the days become a little bit longer until we reach Spring!!! Its a celebration that promotes community and is a wonderful thing, which is why Christians have immersed themselves so fully in our holiday, because its nice and it feels good (and we all know that the winter time can be one of the hardest parts of the year!) My point is, egocentrism about your own religion doesn’t give validity to eradicate other’s beliefs. Celebrate Christmas in your own home, on your own time, I’ll celebrate Yule and when tax dollars are concerned (which we are ALL paying into) we’ll call it a friggin “holiday”. Blessed Be!
Annoyed just got OWNED by Jessica. Nice work, kiddo!
Jessica, thank you for educating Annoyed. I have friends who celebrate Yule and decorate accordingly, as has been done for thousands of years by people. Feasting, gifting, celebrating light through candles and now electric light, a Yule log, an evergreen tree symbolic of life in the midst of dark, cold, “dead” winter and the turn toward longer daylight and the sun’s “rebirth” are all natural symbolic gestures and found in many different faiths in other ways as well. When Christianity became the official religion of Rome they looked for ways to institutionalize the religion and took over other holidays melding their story into the already celebrated practices, sometimes awkwardly though. Astronomers studying the story of the “Virgin Birth” and the storied Star in the East have concluded there was no way there could have been such an occurrence at that time of the year and surmised such a star could only have been present in the eastern sky in March I believe.
Parallels to many of the Bible stories though are found throughout other mythologies that pre-date Christianity and even Judaism, it’s originator. Practices of followers of the god Horus and also Mithra, and of relevance today still, of Krishna, in particular show great parallels to today’s worship of Jesus. Mithraites may have borrowed from early Christians but Horus predates Jesus by thousands of years.
There are reportedly almost 200 precise matches between the events in the lives of Jesus and Horus, and the 346 “striking analogies between Christ and Khrishna. Similarly, almost all religions have within their belief structure a form of the Golden Rule and even this pre-dates Christianity, indicating that this idea was seen as commonsense by humans and not necessarily divinely inspired, which continues today in humanism as “Good without a God.”
It’s an outrage when people are forced to adopt beliefs or fashion their practices into dominant beliefs that are being mandated by the sword, so to speak. I’m reading of the lives of the Crypto-Jews here in New Mexico who were forced to profess Catholicism or face death but kept their secret Judaic practices hidden for hundreds of years.
Thankfully today’s adherents of other religions or none at all, can worship or profess openly without fear of reprisal or threat and all are seen as equal citizens under the law. We’ve evolved a long way in this nation established in freedom!
you are such an idiot. You don’t get that YOU are the one persecuting people for their beliefs. If you don’t want to pray before the prayer wall DON’T, no one is forcing you to. But other people find it inspirational and meaningful.
As it is a public school funded by the government, it is illegal. That is the plain-and-simple truth of the matter.
Whose beliefs were on the wall.. the school’s?
The City’s? The Board of Education’s?
PEOPLE have rights.. entities such as the city govt and board of education do not, and are in fact prohibited by law from promoting religious beliefs.
If it’s that important to you, put a copy of it in your notebook and pray away. Nobody is stopping you.
See how freedom of religion works?
No, you fucking retard. The sign at a school says “Government=USA=Christianity” That leaves out citizens of different religions, and that is illegal.
Learn to read before you bring out your skank ass opinion.
LOl this moron cracks me up. Anyone else? If the authors of this blog had any common sense she’d ban this idiot. He does nothing for her useless cause.
That’s where you’re wrong. The truth, however crudely expressed, is always appreciated.
OK… Zeke….
cliff, i think we can all spot the moron
Siding with an idiot who has three words, all swears, in his vocabulary says enough.
I came by to say congrats on your win, but now I have to engage in this debate.
I actually have to disagree with the governor’s choice to refer to it as a holiday tree, because I think it’s purely unnecessary.
Christmas is a federal holiday, and Christmas is the holiday that involves bringing trees indoors and decorating it. Being a federal holiday means it is being observed as a secular day of celebration. It’s a Christmas tree. You can call it a holiday tree if you want to, that’s fine, but doing so isn’t important since Christmas is a holiday that has pagan roots and is often celebrated secularly.
Sorry, but bringing in trees to celebrate the winter solstice was done long before there were any Christians around to celebrate Christmas.
It’s a pagan symbol, like mistletoe and the Yule log.
I know, right, Tycha? And the bible specifically condemns the use of pagan symbols to celebrate christian holidays.
So, I just gotta wonder why the christians are so insistent on calling a Holiday Tree a Christmas Tree? Don’t they realize that’s against their religion?
Most Christians symbols are borrowed from other faiths, I’m aware of that.
My point is that Christmas is a secular holiday that is federally observed. It is not necessarily more inclusive to call it a Holiday Tree, seeing as the federal holiday Christmas is a day that can and is celebrated without Christmas being a reference to Christ.
Dear Jessica.
Thank you.
I had never heard of your story until it blew up in the last couple of days, thanks to your win. Probably doesn’t help that I’m Australian, either. But having read everything I could, twitter message and drawn-out facebook debates included, I want to congratulate you.
See, it’s one thing to debate your beliefs, but it’s another entirely to uphold them in the face of such malice and brutality, and dare I say it, though still 3 years younger than myself, you’ve shown the greatest integrity and maturity of anyone involved in this whole piece.
You’re an inspiration to people everywhere, not just atheists, but anyone fighting against religions oppression. Here’s wishing you the very best, and again, for winning your stand, congratulations. People don’t fight for civil liberties anywhere near often enough in this modern day and age, and you’re truly a credit to our generation.
Sincerely,
an avid Australian Supporter.
Mature in education and career and come back in twenty years and share with the rest of us from your fountain of wisdom.
http://tammyswofford.blogspot.com/2012/01/judge-orders-removal-of-school-mural.html
Tammy
Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s minister of propaganda, noted in his diary in 1939:
“The Fuehrer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race.”
William Shirer was an American journalist, war correspondent, and historian, who wrote The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich a groundbreaking history of Nazi Germany, in chronicling the Nazi regime wrote concerning the Nazi strategy:
“The Nazi regime intended eventually to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists. As Bormann, one of the men closest to Hitler, said publicly in 1941, ‘National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable.’”
He told General Gerhart Engel: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”1.
From Hitler, God, and the Bible (publishing date, April 20th, 2011)
What’s your point? Jesus was supposedly Jewish but that doesn’t mean Jews believe Jesus is the Messiah.
“Prior to Darwin, it was difficult to argue against the Judeo-Christian conception of the unity of man, based on the single creation of Adam and Eve. Darwin ‘s theory suggested that humans had evolved over hundreds of thousands, even millions of years, and that the races of men had diverged while adapting to the particularities of local conditions. The impact of Darwin’s theory was enormous.”
By Robert N. Proctor (Racial Hygiene: Medicine Under the Nazis [1988])
“No rational man, cognizant of the facts, believes that the average Negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the white man. And if this be true, it is simply incredible that, when all his disabilities are removed, and our prognathous relative has a fair field and no favor, as well as no oppressor, he will be able to compete successively with his bigger-brained and smaller-jawed rival, in a contest which is to be carried on by thoughts and not by bites.”
By Thomas Huxley, Atheist, Evolutionist (Lay Sermons, Addresses, and Reviews, 1871)
The Christian Bible supports stoning of women and slavery so I’m not sure why you’re talking about Atheism and Racism. It was just a common belief at the time and isn’t attributable to one religious belief or lack thereof.
“The Bible has been misused to justify many atrocities, but does not justify them itself. The theory of evolution justifies all atrocities when used. Anyone who says it doesn’t is either a fool or a liar.”
Jinx McHue
And the theory of evolution has to do with the issue discussed here in exactly which respect?
Seriously, it is the other way around: The Bible actually justifies atrocities like witch-hunting by explicit words such as ‘Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.’ (EXODUS 22:17)
The theory of evolution, on the other hand, does not tell anybody to do anything whatsoever. The theory only explains how the species living today came to be the way they are.
But, well, it is a quite interesting strategy to say that whoever may disagree with one’s own opinion, no matter how weird and absurd it be, must be a fool or a liar simply by the very fact of opposing one. Too bad this does not make one’s own point any more plausible.
You quote the Exodus verse out of context to suit your needs. Very dishonest.
The context is: War, with Israel surrounded by hostile enemies. Significantly outgunned and outmanned.
So everyone is under martial law, where any individual action which, for whatever reason, might cause instability from within, and in turn which might cause significant war casualites, was prohibited.
We have that in the world today, and I even saw a bit of that during the LA riots 2 decades ago. So please don’t tell us we here in the USA would be any different under martial law ok?
How is Darwinism related to atheism? They are close siblings so are connected. Every atheist I know is also a Darwinist. No exceptions in my experience. And the connection is made even more obvious by your post.
Thank you very much for reminding me why I usually do not engage in controversies like this one: it always gets nowhere. Nonetheless, I am going to reply to you one last time before I turn to more important things.
The issue of the very article we are leaving replies to is about a controversy on what to call a tree. It is not about atheism, it is not about biology, and it is not about evolution or the theory of evolution. Both your quotes and your ranting are therefore pointless.
Furthermore, I did not quote the passage from Exodus so as to suit my needs. This is, rather, what you want it to be like, and for this reason you interpret it in this manner.
Moreover, the context of war does not make the imperative of this passage any better. It is an imperative to punish people for a crime committed in virtue of a power which does not even exist, totally irrational and pointless, and therefore an atrocity par excellence, in the very sense of the word.
Needless to say, I could have quoted other passages, but to what point? Both of us know the Bible, and we both know what can be done with it.
Finally, ‘Darwinism’ and ‘theory of evolution’ are not synonyms. Darwinism is a view of evolution rather strictly committed to what Charles Darwin himself wrote about evolution, in some or other respect even more so than Darwin himself, which renders it a quite irrational view.
I am not a Darwinist because I have a rather liberal view on evolution, similar to Darwin himself.
Please do not make up premises to validate conclusions you have drawn in advance! Thank you kindly.
“Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory.”
By Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny (Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 1977), p. 127.
“Darwin’s theories came to be openly set out in political and military text books as the full justification for war and highly organized schemes of national policy in which the doctrine of force became the doctrine of Right.”
By Steven J. Gould, Atheist, MACROevolutionist, Harvard Professor of Paleontology, “William Jennings Bryan’s Last Campaign,” Natural History, November 1987, pp. 22-24.
You can quote mine all you like, but to blame evolution for racism would require making the case that there is a scientific justification for racism, which is clearly not true. Obviously once evolution was accepted those with racist views would try to justify these views using biology, but these claims were starting from a racist premise, not arising from biology, and have been thoroughly refuted using science.
If you are going to try to link evolution with racism, ask some simple questions – has racism increased or decreased over the last 150 years? Is it more or less prevalent in areas where the acceptance of evolution is widespread? Did racist institutions like slavery develop before or after the theory of evolution? The answers should be obvious.
Finally, to claim that religious justifications for racism are a ‘misuse’ of religion is simply a convenient double standard to avoid facing the long history of religious racism.
“Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory.”
By Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny (Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 1977), p. 127.
Gould was arguing that biological arguments were being misused in the service of social prejudice. His entire thesis was that there is no evolutionary necessity for racism.
“Darwin’s theories came to be openly set out in political and military text books as the full justification for war and highly organized schemes of national policy in which the doctrine of force became the doctrine of Right.”
By Steven J. Gould, Atheist, MACROevolutionist, Harvard Professor of Paleontology, “William Jennings Bryan’s Last Campaign,” Natural History, November 1987, pp. 22-24.
Funny how Darwin’s theories weren’t needed to justify war before he published them. Ahh, but maybe they weren’t needed: the bible provided more than enough justification for centuries. Crusades, witch burning, slavery, genocide.
Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. — Heywood Broun
In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. –Jonathon Miller
It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists. –Mohandas Gandhi
Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist. –C. S. Lewis
“LOL I’m going to wipe billions of people in a huge flood.” -God
Tolerance of Intolerance is Cowardice.
No one prevents christians from believing, but to insist everyone else follow their rules, and their beliefs is to be a bully. To then harass the girl who points this out is to be a bully. To then pretend it’s the atheists who are being immoral is to be a coward.
Gandhi also said something along the lines of “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians; they are so unlike your Christ.”
I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, I hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.
–Thomas Nagel
Article: Anger at God common, even among Atheists
If you’re angry at your doctor, your boss, your relative or your spouse, you can probably sit down and have a productive conversation about it. God, on the other hand, is probably not available to chat.
And yet people get angry at God all the time, especially about everyday disappointments, finds a new set of studies in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.
It’s not just religious folks, either. People unaffiliated with organized religion, atheists and agnostics also report anger toward God either in the past, or anger focused on a hypothetical image – that is, what they imagined God might be like – said lead study author Julie Exline, Case Western Reserve University psychologist.
Anger at God can strongly resemble feelings you may have against another person, Exline found. God may seem treacherous or cruel when bad things happen, just like another individual might. Your anger may fester even more when there’s no good reason for the negative event, such as a natural disaster or a disease, to occur. Post by: Elizabeth Landau – CNN.com Health Writer/Producer January 2011
I’m sorry, are you turning this into a debate on whether or not god exists?
When the issue is that in this country people are allowed to believe in any god they choose, or none at all, and that no religion will be promoted with tax payer dollars. be it as a Christmas tree or in the form of a prayer banner.
If you want to debate the existence of god, or want to debate atheists on the subject, go and find a blog entry that discusses that.
God is NOT our heavenly vending machine, giving us everything we want.
If God decides to let my 102 year-old grandmother die and not let her live to 103, that’s part of life’s ups and downs.
Our life on earth is NOT heaven. And it is unfair to expect as much. Yes, we have disease, suffering, death, crime, natural disasters, etc…
Charles Darwin became an atheist AFTER his favorite daughter died. But experiencing pain in this life does not mean God doesn’t care. It simply means God will let us suffer for a time BUT God will help us GET THROUGH the suffering rather than REMOVE the suffering.
I have suffered loss. So have you, as you indicated by your mother’s mental condition in your you-tube video.
In this life we will have our ups and downs. There is no need to be angry at God or to deny God’s existence because of hardship.
Otherwise, we would all be atheists.
Also, you made a very prejudicial and bigoted statement by saying “religion is the problem” and connecting religion to the Holocaust, as if to say people of faith are unthinking enough to follow blindly and go on a killing rampage.
Although religious people have no doubt acted with prejudice toward you – which should not be so, please don’t return the same and act and speak in such a manner as those who have wronged you.
Respectfully submitted.
Respectfully, you have no business psychoanalysing Jessica’s reason for not believing in god.
Leave that to her friends who know her well, and in person, and to her family, and her doctor.
I don’t believe in any sort of deity, no spiritual world or soul.
My only problem with this is simply that the government should not support any belief, EVEN the belief in no god. Atheism, as I see it, can take just as much faith as a pious Christian. I’m tired of everyone making a huge deal about what they do with their time…it’s wasted just as spending time poking fun at them and getting pointless little banners removed is pointless.
If you remove the very first sentence of that banner, then it would simply be a call for students to study, be respectful, and do their best. Is that bad? No. Morality is not religion, and should be important to all humans. Therefore, being a relativist and condemning someone for their beliefs rather than accepting and understanding that people throughout history have lived and coexisted even while practicing different religions, or no religion.
So, as an atheist, but not an asshole, I simply ask why all this attention is necessary. There will always be religion. That’s unavoidable. So understand that, and learn to exist beside that.
Are you so ignorant and biased that one day, suppose you were working for a Christian who wore a cross necklace. Would you take that job? Perhaps you worked for a Muslim, and had to work around their daily prayers…
COEXIST. UNDERSTAND.
You should take a religious studies, or perhaps a philosophy/ethics class and then perhaps you would have a better appreciation for the necessity of religion. Not as salvation, but throughout history as it’s been a large role throughout all of it.
>Are you so ignorant and biased that one day, suppose >you were working for a Christian who wore a cross >necklace. Would you take that job? Perhaps you worked >for a Muslim, and had to work around their daily prayers…
I find your argument to be valid in the context of private industry, but once you take these same examples and apply them to government position your argument falls apart.
Because SCOTUS set the precedent for applying the 14th Amendment to the states (applying the Bill of Rights to the states), it follows that any religious activity endorsed by a government organization would violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. I imagine this the reason for the ACLU’s involvement.
This neither seems a case of a girl being what you consider an “asshole” nor a case of descrimination based on religious belief, but rather a situation in which she recognized a government endorsement of religion and therefore a violation of her rights. She then proceded to contest the violation in a court of law.
I believe she understands well the issue at hand as she took an objective measurement of the law and then used the same system to achieve justice. You have condemned her in the court of your subjectivity and thereby confirmed your own belief when you should be recognizing the virtues of her intelligence, courage and activism.
Jessica,
You are wonderful. Don’t let the naysayers get you down. You stood up for what you knew was right, and I am very proud to be a fellow atheist.
[I couldn't help but notice that for the most part, the "atheists" who are criticizing you don't seem to be able to to spell the word "atheist."
]
Don’t keep the faith, but keep on keeping on. You are not alone.
Christmas is a federal holiday. A Christmas tree is a CHRISTMAS tree-what possible other holiday could it represent? We don’t call a menorah simply holiday candles. And furthermore calling it a Christmas tree does not mean it could not be put up by the government- federal holiday remember? A “Holiday” tree represents nothing, means nothing and is just a sop to atheists who represent a very small percent of Americans and seem to do nothing but look for ways to insert their views and vitriol into the public square.
Ummmm, it could represent the Pagan YULE, which is where the tradition came from. I celebrate it every year on December 21st, not Christmas on the 25th. Christmas is just a collection of Pagan traditions that the Christians assimilated when the Romans started endorsing Christianity and converting people.
Agreed. If things were right, the government wouldn’t be in the business of spending taxpayer money on any holiday symbols.
Calling it a Holiday Tree is at least an attempt to keep it non-christian, though.
Way to go kid. Best way to contradict fanatics is to insult their beliefs.
What could POSSIBLY go wrong!
Hi Jessica! Thanks for the history lesson and I am so sorry there are sick people out there that have displayed hostility and hatred toward you. I also was bullied in school and I can certainly empathize with you. I support your values and you have my friendship! Thank you for being you!
I support your stands on these issues … But seriously, would you call a Menorah a “Holiday Candle”?
A Christmas tree is a Christmas tree… what other holiday could such a tree with Pagan roots represent?
I agree with this. The fight shouldn’t be about the label. Isn’t there some Atheist something or others? I don’t find a Menorah offensive, but I’ve never had a Jew freak out on me if I didn’t say “Happy Hannukah” when it rolled around. I guess the real point behind all of this is that there is a ridiculous fight going on between two extremes – people wishing to remove all religious inklings from public places and those trying to push their certain beliefs/religion into those same places. The ones just trying to get a little respect get caught in the middle and trampled on.
Agreed. If things were right, the government wouldn’t be in the business of spending taxpayer money on any holiday symbols.
Calling it a Holiday Tree is at least an attempt to keep it non-christian, though.
Jessica,
I read the clips from your facebook page. I admire your courage and composure and think you’re mature beyond your years. Don’t let the godbots wear you down.
Love your blogs.
I really don’t mind that it’s called a Christmas tree…I don’t relate the tree to Christ or any other religious figure. Christmas was really a pagan holiday to begin with, anyway. It just feels less special for me to call it a “holiday tree” or “holiday presents.”
I don’t think it’s such a big deal for someone else to call it that, though, and I wouldn’t try to make them call it a Christmas tree just for me. I don’t go all wiggy when someone says “Happy Holidays,” just like I don’t expect anyone to go nuts when I say “Happy Christmas!” When did we all start having to walk on eggshells around one another? When people started insisting that this country was founded on one particular religion and that it should permeate every fiber of this country or we’ll all burn for eternity. Dang, isn’t that what Mary Tudor was up to when she burned all of the “heretics,” aka reformists, in an attempt to return England to a faithful and “true” state…one of Catholicism? I say respect others, regardless of their religion or lack thereof, and don’t flip next time someone says “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas.”
hello everyone and happy new year, or can i not say that either because the system of time we use is based off of a christian monk. but, i have nothing against atheists, and commend you for staying together because it is in times when the world is against us that we become stronger, as the jews did so many times, and the christians did as well as the muslims. but, i try to live my life the best i can and follow my Lord God as well as the teachings of Jesus christ. i ask any of you to write down one instance when jesus said anything or did anything during his life that was evil or not the moral thing to do. name one of his teachings that would make us all do terrible things and have us all end up in prison. i bet you cannot. so, go ahead and rip the people who do not live a life devoted to christ and yell at those who do not model christianity, but do not rip christianity itself. as a whole it is a system of belief that gets me through the tough times in life as well as rejoice in the good ones. and if at the end of my life here on earth, there is no God afterall, oh well. i would have lived a good life and been happy with what i did for the people around me. that is good enough for me. so fight your fight and get publicity but do not hate on my religion just as i will not hate on your beliefs. if we have freedom of religion, then let us be free to try to spread the good news. let us pray and let us believe in Christ. and one more thing, i applaud your fight to get that prayer taken down form your high school jessica, but no where does it link solely to christianity and catholicism. the words heavenly father and amen are used by christians jews and muslims so why not attack them as well and not just us catholics.
Matthew 10: 34-36
Matthew 10: 37
Matthew 19: 29
Mark 4: 11-12
Mark 10: 29-30
Mark 14: 3-7
Luke 12: 46-47
Luke 12: 51
Luke 14: 33
John 12: 25
John 12: 48
Plenty more where that came from. Just try reading the bible, you’ll be horrified.
Hello Jessica, I just wanted to let you know that I support what you have done 100%. You are much braver than I am. Some of the comments people have directed towards you are infuriating and they make me ashamed to share this planet with them. Keep doing great things and stay safe!
Jessica,
Congratulations on your victory over ignorance and sectarianism! You are an awesome role model for youth in the USA! It is so inspiring to see a young woman thinking for herself and standing up for her principles. It brings my heart joy to see that you don’t let the opinions of narrow minded bigots and hypocrites get under your skin or silence you.
These misguided religious zealots need to understand that Freedom of Religion also means Freedom From Religion, and that no school or government entity can be allowed to promote one religion over another. They should also understand that the true practice of Christian values is based on Love, not hatred and fear.
In my opinion, there are two choices when it comes to religious displays in schools or government facilities:
1. Ban all government-sponsored religious displays
2. Provide equal space for ALL all faiths (and atheists) to express their traditions
I personally would not object if a school or government entity provided a space for Christians to put up a Christmas tree or hang a sectarian prayer, so long as they allow ALL FAITHS (and atheists) equal space to express their beliefs and honor their traditions.
Separation of church and state means that government is precluded from promoting one religious belief over another, but in my opinion it shouldn’t necessarily ban all religious displays. If Christians want to hang a prayer banner in a school, they should ensure that Pagans or Moslems or Buddhists or atheists are also allowed to hang their banners. Otherwise, keep your religion out of my government and my schools.
Blessed be!
One city tried it. Then the Christians start whining about how they only got a “few” spaces of the total available.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/15/local/la-me-1215-nativity-atheist-20111215
I’m at a loss for words. Offended?
How has this become a Christian vs. Atheist issue? There are numerous religions that believe in a “Heavenly Father” (Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc…). I’m sorry for the hate mail and threats you have recieved, but the banner does not promote one religion over another. Any religion can take something from the banner. There are hate-filled Christians, Atheists, Hindus, etc… To say the Christian religion is filled with narrow-minded hypocrites is ignorant. You are hearing from a small group of people that are misrepresenting one religion.If you take the extreme of any one group and generalize the entire group is not wise.
If praying to a heavenly father for strength and support aids an individual, who are we to judge their beliefs? I am not a religious person at all. I do not like having somebody else’s beliefs forced down my throat. However, I hae had many good friends and family members find strength by praying to their god. They have become better people. Whether it is Buddha, the Christian God, Allah, etc… strength and faith helped individuals through difficult times.
No harm was done to me while they were praying. If you don’t like the banner, don’t acknowledge it. Much like the news. I’ll watch FOX News strictly for the comedic value, but when I am offended by someone on there, I turn the channel. Easy solution.
If it helps others become a better person, why take that away? How exactly do you feel offended by the wording?
Would it be better if there was another banner next to it for Atheisys? What would it read?
I’m at a loss for words.
How has this become a Christian vs. Atheist issue? There are numerous religions that believe in a “Heavenly Father” (Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc…). I’m sorry for the hate mail and threats you have recieved, but the banner does not promote one religion over another. Any religion can take something from the banner. There are hate-filled Christians, Atheists, Hindus, etc… To say the Christian religion is filled with narrow-minded hypocrites is ignorant. You are hearing from a small group of people that are misrepresenting one religion. If you take the extreme of any one group and generalize the entire group, it is itself prejudices. Internment camps…
If praying to a heavenly father for strength and support aids an individual, who are we to judge their beliefs? I am not a religious person at all. I do not like having somebody else’s beliefs forced down my throat. However, I hae had many good friends and family members find strength by praying to their god. They have become better people. Whether it is Buddha, the Christian God, Allah, etc… strength and faith helped individuals through difficult times.
No harm was done to me while they were praying. If you don’t like the banner, don’t acknowledge it. Much like the news. I’ll watch FOX News strictly for the comedic value, but when I am offended by someone on there, I turn the channel. Easy solution.
If it helps others become a better person, why take that away? How exactly do you feel offended by the wording?
Would it be better if there was another banner next to it for Atheisys? What would it read?
Dan,
you say the christians sending hate mail are just a small part of the christians, and atheists shouldn’t judge all christians by them. Fair enough in theory, but I invite you to look at the numbers. Looking through this blog, I find 2 (two!) posts from christians who are not threatening Jessica, and hundreds from those that do.
What would you like us to judge christians on? Their beliefs? The same beliefs that justify murder, exorcisms, rape, slavery and the oppression of women? Or their actions? The child rapes, the firebombs, the threats of violence?
As for claiming the banner at Jessica’s school doesn’t promote one religion over another is disingenuous, and it misses the point. Most importantly, it promotes religion over non-religion, including atheist students like Jessica. And while you are not required to watch FOX, Jessica is required to attend school, a school which is funded in part by atheists, and witches, and buddhists.
Ironically, it seems no one actually read the banner, or felt they needed to follow it’s precepts. It commands kindness, and honesty, lol. Pretty funny, considering the abuse being heaped on her.
You seem to be a spiritually inclined person, so I’ll leave it by challenging you to consider the following admirable philosophy: To tolerate intolerance is cowardice. Jessica stood up for herself, and everyone else who doesn’t adhere to a father religion. Good for her.
just donated $10 to your college tuition fund. last i checked, the sum was over $10,000 and growing very fast. good luck fighting the good fight.
I completely agree with you 100%. You have very solid opinions and am glad at least some people are able to see that some things just shouldn’t be. Stay strong and congrats on your accomplishments.
I used to be a “born again” Christian and it’s amazing how self centered I was (and they are). They just can’t seem to see things from anybody else’s point of view. They don’t even try. It’s very, very sad. They’re pathetic. They don’t understand how THEY are the bullies and the people who fight back against them are just defending themselves against bullies. They don’t understand the difference between hatred and righteous indignation.
And btw, I really resent you “Christians” steeling my people’s symbols. The “Christmas” tree is OUR PAGAN symbol, NOT YOUR CHRISTIAN symbol.
Just kidding….about me being a Pagan that is.
Jessica,
Just wanted to say you’re an absolute legend. You have shown integrity, honesty, courage and grace, unlike your opponents, and stood up for what is right.
You are awesome.
Thank you.
Wow, it really takes courage to go against the herd. I really don’t know how you manage to cope with all the noise that has been heading your way ever since the controversy started. The way you’ve conducted yourself – your posts and rebuttals – is really impressive; you’ve shown great maturity.
Keep at it!
Hi Jessica,
I just heard about your story for the first time, and though I don’t usually reach out to strangers over the internet I am so impressed and moved by your courage and poise that I wanted to tell you that.
I’m a Christian and also firmly in support of the separation of church and state. It appalls, but does not surprise, me that people misinterpret the Declaration (no, not law, but an excellent indication of where the Framers were coming from), the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and American law in the same willfully ignorant fashion they apply to their Bibles. What I really wish for this country is for all people to be secure in their own beliefs, as you are, so that they aren’t threatened by the beliefs of others. It’s that fear and the overreactions to it that do the most damage.
Thank you for standing up for religious freedom – yours, mine, and everyone else’s – because what your detractors don’t realize is that an infringement on anyone’s rights is really an infringement on that right for everyone, including themselves.
Congratulations on winning the lawsuit, and best of luck!
Adrienne
Thanks for speaking out in Jessica’s support. There are likely many Christians like you, but they’re not as visible as the reactionary bullies and bigots.
Keep speaking out and challenging them; remind atheists like me there are reasonable people of faith. Alas, we don’t see or hear as much of your kind. Probably because covering the crazies sells more air time.
Ok, in my opinion, I think it should still be called a Christmas tree and I have 3 reasons for this. 1. The other religions that celebrate late december holidays do not have trees as a prominent symbol of their respective religions (that I know of, I’m not an expert.), therefore, having a tree at all is a blatant ‘christian’ overtone to the holiday. 2. Christmas itself has seemed to evolve over the years from the christian’s blatant attempt to snuff out the pagan rituals by calling the dates something else and pretending something significant happened there, and has become basically just an ‘american’ holiday, as many of people I know that are not christian and may even have other religious beliefs (i.e. Judaism, Mormon (idk if they have Christmas or not, I just know its technically different….somehow) or Jehova’s Witness) still celebrate Christmas. AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST 3. IF I HAVE TO HEAR THIS CRYBABY ARGUMENT EVERY F-ING YEAR I’M JUST GUNNA START BURNING DOWN ALL THE DAMN TREES SO NONE OF YOU GET ANY!!!!!!!
Fen, in response to your 3 points:
1) You can call it anything you want. But when the government is sponsoring it, the same government that is funded by all taxpayers, which include atheists and muslims and buddhists and witches, then they all need to be included. One way to do this is to call it a Holiday Tree. Why is that so controversial?
2) Christmas is a christian holiday. Just because the majority of the country professes to be christian doesn’t mean it’s all american. Muslims don’t celebrate it. Jews don’t celebrate it. Atheists don’t celebrate it. Individual families may choose to have some sort of celebration (or elevate Hanukkah into a major celebration), in order to participate in the cultural aspect of the holiday, but it remains christian. You will not find a christmas tree in those households.
3)Take it up with the Christians, they’re the ones being all outraged that it’s a holiday tree. What do you want atheist to do about it?
Sabine, if you rename a Christmas Tree in order to ‘include’ followers of other faiths and none, are you actually including them if they don’t have a tree as part of their religious celebrations? At the same time, since the ‘Christmas Tree’ is originally a German cultural item, rather than a central part of the religious Christmas story and celebration, it is already a secular symbol which merely shares its name with a religious festival.
Jessica, you are a hero! Thank you for standing up for the frequently ignored or misunderstood half of our constitution’s protection related to religion: the establishment clause. Thank you for taking the heat for the benefit of others. I’m proud to be on team Jessica!
Jessica, really impressed with your willingness to stand up for what you believe. I wish I’d had half your courage at that age. I know you’re getting attacked left and right, but always remember there are plenty of people out there who agree with you and support your cause. Keep fighting!
Feel free to come to our forum sometime as well.
I follow an organic path in my spirituality and I don’t mind the tree being called a holiday tree. Even ‘pine tree’ or ‘fir tree’ still works. Roger Williams is one of my favorite historical people. I believe in Christ, but I also believe that the prayer being displayed on the wall in your school is unconstitutional. The prayer by itself is not..but displaying it in a public school is. I support your effort to have it removed. Christians can hang the prayer on their dining room wall, at home, instead.
About the bullying you have been a victim of… I’m sorry people have been incredibly rude to you. When we speak up about our passions, those who have opposing views are bound to speak up too…they just aren’t always so diplomatic about it. Which is a shame..it shows how immature and uneducated they are. Maybe those kinds of Christians need to spend some time studying their bible about patience and humility. And they do NOT represent all Christians. Not at all.
Ms. Ahlquist,
While I am a devout Christian and disagree with your position and actions, I was, prior to reading your lengthy statement regarding the Christmas tree, willing to give you credit for using the legal system to it’s fullest extent. Your parents have certainly taught you about how our court system works and I am certain have coached you, with the assistance of the ACLU, to successfully win this case. It was a masterful use of the system by an adolescent.
However, any respect I had for you was damaged by the childish comments you made in making fun of those who oppose you. You are trying to display maturity but your patronizing tone towards your detractors show your true level of maturity.
I respect your right to be an Athiest, but find it sad that people like you wish to interfere with my right to express my faith and have that acknowledged in public forums. If you don’t like the banner, don’t pay attention to it. If want to skip the assembly, go ahead. But, why force everyone else to change for you and the athiest minority.
In closing, I have been respectful to you. I am curious to see if this is reciprocated by you and/or your supporters. I suspect the hateful and insulting comments will be forthcoming from both. In the end, I will maintain my faith and express it when and I where I chose, as that is my right in this great country. I will similarly pray that God has mercy upon you and the misguided of the world and grant you entry into heaven, forgiving your sins as his only Son, Jesus Christ, died for the sins of man, past, present and future. I hope you find faith.
Respectfully,
Ian Roberts
Ian, she’s 16 years old. She’s a kid. This is her personal blog, and she’s been under attack for over a year for doing the right thing.
Have you read any of the attacks on her? Threatening rape? Murder? Violence? Harassment?
While most of those people don’t give their age, it is probable that many of them are adults. And almost all of them identify as christians.
So you’ve got a 16 year old whose tone isn’t perfectly up to your standard of even handedness, and an entire town of bullies. And you think you should criticize the 16 year old.
Do you see anything wrong with that? No? You should. What I see is a 16 year old who is amazingly level headed while under sustained attack by her classmates, her school administrators and her town. Whose address was published in the paper, by another christian, with a hint and a nod to do harm.
Who is putting those christians to shame with her controlled and to the point responses. I dare say I would never have been capable of that as a teenager…
The entire uproar is especially ironic as the prayer banner under scrutiny preaches kindness and compassion. It also tells the reader to be honest, and I suggest you look at your own willingness to direct your criticism at the only person in this mess who has an excuse to misbehave and be juvenile, because she is a juvenile. The rest of them should be ashamed of themselves.
Ian, just in case you missed the christian response to Jessica, here’s a link:
http://jesusfetusfajitafishsticks.blogspot.com/2012/01/ahlquist-screenshots-if-by-christian.html
Ian, no one is interfering with your right to express your faith, except where you demand that public funds be spent for its pursuit.
You want tattoo yourself with Jesus portraits, scribble the ten commandments all over your car, and tow a trailer with a pine tree all decked out in lights and glass balls? Go for it, man. You want to drop to your knees every five steps to pray? Have at it. Want to stand on a busy downtown street corner “witnessing” to the passersby? Knock yourself out.
Just don’t expect tax money to be used to support your religion.
Ian,
You’re a liar. You never respected her. You’re too prejudiced for that. Please confess your sins and repent.
I just wanted to thank you for bravely fighting this, even as you are threatened and harassed. I truly hope that you know how many people you are helping and giving hope to! As another young atheist I know how hard it can be to even tell people you are a non-religious person, much less to fight your school on something like this. I’m so glad you won, setting a fantastic example for others to follow!
THANK YOU JESSICA! I am so happy to hear your story.
Sorry about all the threats. You did a really brave thing. Good luck.
I am not an atheist, I am against organized religion but I still believe in a God.
That being said, I came across your agreement to do a AMA on reddit. I started watching the crap you went though at the meetings. Girl I just want to say you have BIG BRASS BALLS! I can’t imagine doing what you did at 16. I am amazed.
You keep fighting for your rights. I am humbled by your actions!
Bah humbug!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebenezer_Scrooge
Even the biggest grinch can have a change of heart. I hope and pray you do.
Its a CHRISTMAS tree. Deal with it.
I think the reason you filed your frivolous lawsuit is that seeing the banner reminds you that there IS a higher power. You just have to much pride to admit it. Deep inside you know God exists and you are afraid. You will be held accountable. Please save yourself and turn to Christ before its to late. For all I know this comment might be the comment that changes your heart.
Deep inside you know God doesn’t exist and you are afraid. Please save yourself and escape from the death cult that is religion before it’s too late. For all I know, this comment might be the one comment that changes your heart.
Deep inside you know that you are insecure about the fact that more than 50% of the world doesn’t worship your god and a like a little child who is afraid of accepting that things are different, want to use fearmongering to make others think just like you. Please grow up and accept that there are people who don’t worship your god, like me (Ave Mercurius), like Jess here (whom is completely awesome), like the Hindu down the street (Om Namo Shivaya).
Yes, because making someone feel bad will ALWAYS make them turn to the other side. It would be much nicer if you would at least talk about how God supposedly loves everyone than to subtlely (sp?) say God is condemning her to the depths of Hell.
TurntoChrist,
So your argument boils down to threats of imaginary violence by proxy of your imaginary dictator, and mind-reading – you know what’s in the author’s head – what she really thinks.
Did you think of this argument all by yourself or did a seven year-old help you?
Let’s see, what would an equally stupid counter-argument be like? How about: I think the reason you commented on this site and have an issue with upholding the law regarding the banner is that it reminds you that there ISN’T a higher power. You just have too much pride admit it. Deep inside you know gods don’t exist and you’re afraid of your own mortality and difficult questions about life without the facile answers your religious myths give you. If there is a god you are worshipping the wrong one and you will be held accountable by the Larry the almighty space janitor. Please save yourself and turn to Larry before its too late. For all I know, this comment might be the comment that changes your heart since faithiests don’t value critical thought, they like emotional reasons that appeal to their “heart.”
Hate goes both ways. How does referring to a large segment of the world population as whining babies lend to a peaceful solution? Instead of instigating further discord between elements of our very diverse society, perhaps you should be offering up your ideas for solutions, or at least phrase your arguments in a more respectful manner. It doesn’t matter if ‘they started it’. Be the bigger (wo)man and refrain from name-calling. Unless your goal is sensationalism and generating hits for your blog, that is.
Have you read the attacks on Jessica by self-proclaimed christians? Have you read the posts by christians whenever one of their special privileges are questioned?
If you had, you wouldn’t be aiming your criticism at a 16 year old.
First off, this is her personal blog, where she is not required to be fair and balanced.
Second, I can’t find a single instance where she was inappropriate in a public forum.
Third, she’s a damned juvenile, the only person in this entire mes who has the right to be childish and petty, as she is indeed still too young to be held responsible.
The same can’t be said about anyone else involved in this. Their behavior is despicable, and many of them are adults.
Brad F. is tone trolling and victim blaming.
Martin Luther King Jr. on tone trolls,
“First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
As I Christian, I am deeply offended by your post. Not because of the issue at hand though… in fact, I completely agree with almost everything you’ve said. I think it is ridiculous and embarrassing the way that so many Christians are acting. I do not care what you call the tree. It does not effect me or my beliefs. I think it is ridiculous to think we should have prayer in schools, or even that the Church should have anything to do with government at all. I agree with you on every level.
No the reason that I’m offended is because you are lumping us all together. “The Christians are pissy” and they’re “not smart kids, spoiled brats”, and that we need to “grow up already.”
Don’t give up the high ground. Your argument is sound, you are in the right. Don’t resort to personally attacking and stereotyping all of us. We are not all the same, and personally, I think Jesus would be more pissed than anyone at the way his “followers” are living their lives these days.
Scott,
most of those brutal posts were by self-declared christians, and very few of those in support of her, standing by her, called themselves christians.
You’re right, of course, not all christians are the same, but when the moderate christians don’t step up and hold the angry christians accountable, don’t blame atheists for not keeping track.
“I think Jesus would be more pissed than anyone at the way his “followers” are living their lives these days.”
Would you be so kind as to tell them that?
It doesn’t take a lot of courage to come here and pull the “good cop” part of the “good cop/bad cop” schtick. Chewing people out for identifying the bad behavior of some of your compatriots when you could be chewing out the bad behavers instead, is cowardice.
As long as public schools and facilities feature text or imagery of any religion, I can guiltlessly call black people niggers.
Stay classy, America.
Jessica,
Just a note from an old fart. I have served my country in the Armed Forces and I did that to DEFEND the Constitution. Which also protects you to stand up to the religious biggots who would all have us marching lock step for Jesus. I am proud of you for standing up for your RIGHTS and am happy to see that you won your case. It is people like you we need more of in this country. People who will stand up when they see injustice being done. It has taken great bravery on your part to put up with all the bile and threats that have been sent your way. I respect your right to be an Atheist, The road you have chosen isn’t an easy one. Too many people will want to bring you down for being a “Free Thinker” or just for daring to be different from them. Most of those folks are not used to not having everyone in their “Herd”.
I personally am a Pagan and have been on for over 30 years. It works for me. I also have been the target of attacks and threats. I’m still here. I just want my holidays back. If folks want to celebrate the birth of Christ, then let them do it at the right time..sometime in July…
Stand for what you believe in. Without a “True” voice of your own, then you are never truly free.
On your being “Free”, remember that it is also something that scares most people. It frightens them to see someone of your age, being Mature enough to take on the establishment. fight for your Freedoms and win!!!
Good luck in the future with what ever you seek to do.
John A. Robertson
Dallas.
I would demand that a Winter Solstice Blót (offering) to the Gods was made, as is the tradition.
FTW!
I am an atheist, but when it comes to things like Christmas trees, I find the political correctness even worse than Christian resentment.
While I would personally like to see religion disappear, I get kind of annoyed by the way the government tries to cater to everyone.
Just like the Christians should not get antsy about a Jewish person celebrating hanukah, there is no reason why other religions should get mad at other people celebrating their own beliefs.
What really gets me is the indoctrination of children in to religions such as Christianity. After visiting small town Texas it literally scares me how many people Believe. These same people are filled with the hate of the narrow minded people in these towns towards twisted Christian viewpoints on everything from homosexuals to Islam.
Cheched out this blog for the first time and I have to tell you as an atheist even I know callin a Christmas tree a holiday tree is stupid. Christmas trees are for Christmas and that’s what they have always been called. It’s a cymbol of Christmas it’s not a universal icon besides the upside trees. Those people grew that Christmas tree and should e able to call it as such. If he wanted more diversity who could have put up other religious cymbols for the other holidays. But calling a Christmas tree a holiday tree is just stupid. Also going of into Christians being spoiled brats is just ignorant. I know many poor struggling families that feel just the same way I do and they aren’t spoiled brats. I’m an atheist and everything about this post I disagree with
No Atheist spells—or reasons—as poorly as you.
Your god will burn you for lying, you know that.
Revelation 21:8
I approve of this post.
Roger Williams wanted religious liberty for Christians(Protestants and Catholics). Atheists would not have been welcome in RI(or anywhere in the colonies). But that’s just history.
“Christmas” is actually a recognized US holiday so having a Christmas tree is appropriate. Consider that there has been significant crossover between religion and culture. We have plenty of non-religious folks celebrating Christmas with Santa as the main player.
I’m sorry about the vitriol and threatening messages you are getting, that’s not appropriate for such a conflict.
> “Christmas” is actually a recognized US holiday so having a Christmas tree is appropriate.
I would suggest you contact whatever school you got your Constitutional Law degree from and demand your money back, as they clearly skipped the part about how the Lemon test works.
Jessica you’re amazing.
Jessica,
Thank you for being a breath of rationality and sanity.
I am Asatru, and proud of it. I’m marrying a Christian, who is proud of her faith. We get along because neither of us is a mindless zealot and we respect each others beliefs. I wish other people could figure out how to do the same.
@Jessica’s detractors:
- If you claim that Christianity is the more tolerant religion, I refer you to history class where they spoke of the crusades, witch hunts, spanish inquisition, etc.
- If you claim your God to be the most loving god, I refer you to the Old Testament and the many acts of genocide. See also Sodom & Gomorrah, the flood, etc. (For a purported being that gave us free will, he sure seemed to take offense when people didn’t do what he said, how he said it, or when he said to do it.)
- If you claim “Christmas” is a purely Christian holiday, I refer you to the countless books on Pagan tradition.
- If you claim that America was founded on Christianity, I refer you to the First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” For those of you who “Just Don’t Get It”, that means the government cannot _endorse_ or _censure_ ANY religion. The government is supposed to be _agnostic_!
Finally, to all those out there that claim your flavour of Christianity is the one and only “true” religion, I issue a simple challenge.
I challenge you to give me a LOGICAL reason to disprove the existence of my gods that doesn’t also disprove the existence of yours. Use of logical fallacy is an automatic fail. Claiming your proof is in the Bible is also a fail, as I will just refer you to the Prose/Poetic/Younger Edda or the Koran as a counterpoint. (“But the Bible was written by God!” *see logical fallacy, as the Bible was written by men and not directly by a deity’s hand, as were the other mentioned works.*)
“May love and compassion live in your heart, and common sense live in your head.” – Anon
I think I shall have to change screen names, for you are not the Evan that I am. And I think I was here first.
Can I launch a crusade against your screen name?
BTW, when you say this
>I challenge you to give me a LOGICAL reason to disprove the existence of my gods that doesn’t also disprove the existence of yours. <
You're asking them to disprove a negative. That can't be done in standard logical forms. You'd have to get into a non-standard logic for that to work. And I don't think the average reader here is up for the sort of mind-bending gymnastics that non-standard logics involve.
Jessica, Congrats and keep up the good work.
But as far as the Christmas Tree goes please reconsider. Don’t attack a lovely secural tradition just because it happens to share the name of some Cult’s Rite. Most children if asked to list the central character in their Christmas celebration would list Jesus 4th or 5th after Santa, Rudolf and Frosty. And after they grow up you can always point out there is more evidence for the existence of Santa and the Easter Bunny than there is for God or Jesus.
Dray
Before Time, there wasn’t enough Time, for God to create Time.
> “But as far as the Christmas Tree goes please reconsider. Don’t attack an unconstitutional act by the government just because it happens to violate the establishment clause of the first amendment.”
Fixed it for you
As I was saying don’t confuse the legal secular holiday of Christmas symbolized by the tree with the illegal cult holiday of Christmass symbolized by a baby in a manger.
And don’t confuse Easter with the Bunny and Easter with the Zombie.
They are completely different things.
Jessica- I can only imagine how proud your parents must be of you! I have two daughters and am raising them to be freethinkers- they can decide to eventually believe in a god if they want to. Until then, I’m giving the scientific facts only. I’m sure you’re having ups and downs right now- I can’t imagine the stress you must be under having only a few years of experience under your belt. That being said, I just can’t put into words how simply amazing you are- that a 16 year old girl can be so STRONG and so centered (and incredibly intelligent). I’m going to point to you as a role model for my two daughters when it comes to issues of doing what is right, no matter what others think. You have touched so many lives in such a short amount of time. I look forward to seeing where you life takes you. We need more people like you (not “kids”, people!) in our contry to fight for our constitutional rights!
Well done, Jessica! I’m so proud of you!!!
Michael
Andover, MN
Congratulations on your recent win! I am shocked and horrified at how your school and many Christians have treated you. Regardless of one’s personal beliefs, religion of any kind does not belong in a public school.
I went to a private school. While there weren’t religious elements like prayer, there were certain traditions that were very clearly remnants from a time when non-Christians were considered irrelevant. They tried to be PC about it… and ended up kind of failing around Christmas time. There was a hymn that a headmistress decades ago adored, and singing it right before break became a tradition. The school was unwilling to give up the tradition, but it is not a mandatory event, and they have gotten better at explaining that after students complained to administration. While I think that all of us non-Christians found it annoying, we all knew that it was completely within the rights of a private school to do that.
They also had a giant tree that had some stupid name to clarify that it wasn’t a Christmas tree, it was just decorated in red and green and covered in lights. Once again, it was completely within their rights. But, given that the environment was one that tried to be inclusive of all beliefs, we would have preferred that it be called a Christmas tree. I think that the Christians at the school were lying to themselves by calling it anything else. Also, I hate the nonsense about it being a Pagan tradition. Sure, it is, whatever. I don’t want Pagan traditions forced on me either. Similarly, at my (private) college, there was a hysterical “holiday” setup that included a rather plain Christmas tree with a traditional star on top, and next to it was a smaller, slumpier tree with a Star of David on it. I don’t think they quite get it. (also, most of the people there were Atheists with some Christian traditions). I can see how, given the atmosphere of where you live, that you’d prefer that it not be called a Christmas tree.
I am against any US public institution promoting any religion. The US used to be much, much worse about this. They have been improving, but whenever religion and government mix, it’s always a mess. I am Jewish (well, culturally Jewish. I would also consider myself an Apatheist; god is irrelevant to how I live my life). My family has stories of dreadful Antisemitism they faced in the US. My grandparents were denied college admissions and scholarships that they qualified for on the basis of merit. They were banned from certain neighborhoods. They weren’t welcome in many social circles. My mother, even when she was in elementary school, was told that she killed Jesus by her neighbors. I get told that I’m going to Hell for not believing in Jesus. I’ve seen an authority figure tell a tiny 10 year old Hindu girl that she was going to Hell for her beliefs (to the kid’s credit, she didn’t look particularly phased, and calmly said that she didn’t agree). When the government promotes a religion, I think they are contributing to this problem. Particularly in public schools, having religious symbols tells kids “this is normal. You should be like this. If you don’t have these beliefs, you are an outsider”. That’s dangerous. It validates the majority and makes the minorities feel quite excluded. You have done a service to all religious minorities who will attend your school. (The “heavenly father” reference makes it clearly Christian. I remember reading that they tried to pass it off as encompassing monotheistic religions. It doesn’t. It’s a Christian phrase. Jews don’t call god “father”. “heavenly” describes food and luxurious pastimes, not god).
Just remember to not be too harsh. My college was mostly Atheist, and they were all so used to be in the clear minority that they didn’t seem to realize that they sometimes bashed religion to the point of making others uncomfortable, particularly the minority groups, who lacked a sizable community. While there are the insane, self-righteous, greedy Christians, there are also reasonable, kind ones who can be taught to understand that their religious traditions are not universal and harmless. Give the ones willing to listen reasonable, polite explanations. The others…
I just read about your story on Alternet and I wish that I could give you a big hug. It has to be hard to endure all of the hatred being thrown at you right now. Just know that you stood up for what was right! I hope my little girl grows up to be as brave as you have been. Stay strong!
Jessica, regarding the ‘holiday tree’ phrase being used in order to be ‘inclusive of all regions and winter holidays’, this has been done in the UK quite a lot recently and almost without exception leaders of the ‘other religions’ – such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and even Paganism – have complained to the relevant authorities asking that they are not used to excuse such attempts at removing a religious festival from the calendar.
If you think about it, they still celebrate their own festivals such as Ramadan, Dossain and Samhein, and no authority would suggest that they ought to be lumped together as an ‘autumn’ festival.
Hi,
Can we please interview you?
AtheismTV
Thank you, I wish I’d said some things when I was in high school, but didn’t.
Immature Christians like that are feeling one thing, and one thing only, scared. They are scared of losing their cultural hegemony and scared of sharing the table with Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Asatruar, Atheists, etc. And like a scared animal they lash out at anyone they feel is a threat. It’s kind of cute if you ignore the fact that they can be vicious.
Personally, I call it a Holiday Tree, since they are many thousand years older than Christianity (and I’m a Polytheist Reconstructionist) . My parents call it a Christmas Tree. We’re just talking about the same object, potato-patata if you know what I mean.
Jessica – keep fighting. Reason will triumph over ignorance, despite the number of ignorant Christians fighting to remain ignorant.
If I was your dad, I’d be very proud of you.
Just came across this blog today. Great stuff! Excellent writing, and I agree with your viewpoint 100%.
When I was in high school, the school prayer irritated me, but all I did was sit down during it. Good for you for fighting the good fight!
You have a right to you own opinion, but I wish you would lump all Christians together like you seem to be doing. No EVERY Christian is like that. Some of us really do believe in religious equality. I feel like you are insulting me personally by lumping me together with a bunch of hateful people who refuse to accept that they aren’t the only ones who inhabit this planet. I am not, nor have I ever been like this. I don’t insult people who disagree with me. The whole point of being a Christian is to be like Jesus, to love everyone no matter what they do or what they’ve done, and leave the judgement to God. I understand that a lot of people call themselves Christians and DO act the way you’re describing. Those aren’t Christians. They go against 95% of what we believe in.
I don’t understand why you do what you do. I don’t think that a prayer banner or a Christmas tree really hurts anyone. Plenty of non-Christians celebrate Christmas. If I don’t get offended when people post signs that claim that God doesn’t exist, I don’t see why people should get offended when they see or hear something that say that He does. But, I guess I don’t have to understand. I respect you, and I love you all the same.
Like I said, please stop lumping us together. There are actually reasonable Christians out there. Everyone else just uses a Christian label to justify their actions to themselves and others.
“I understand that a lot of people call themselves Christians and DO act the way you’re describing. Those aren’t Christians. They go against 95% of what we believe in.”
They are doing and ARE CHRISTIAN. I don’t say this to be disrespectful, just to point out that the “No True Scotsman” fallacy doesn’t work. That’s why I called them immature Christians that attacked her; they were Christians acting immaturely. It’s like Spock always said, “It’s life Jim, but not as we know it.”
Don’t think of it as an insult that you are lumped in with them, think of it as a motivation, to not be like them. They are the loudest wheel, and they get the grease. If you don’t want to be lumped with them, do what Gandhi says, and be the change, make a difference to the title of Christian. We all have stereotypes we get lumped into, and it is up to us to disproove them and rise above them
.
“I feel like you are insulting me personally by lumping me together with a bunch of hateful people who refuse to accept that they aren’t the only ones who inhabit this planet. I am not, nor have I ever been like this.”
The people insulting you are the hateful people. Go tell THEM how they are not being Christian and tell THEM to quit making Christians look bad. From the things I have read here, Xians fall into two categories: 1) Hateful and 2) Coming over here bitching because Jessica is calling them on their bad behavior–which does NOTHING to stop the bad behavior. You are just enabling them. Like I said, go tell THEM to stop.
Of course that takes more guts than coming here and picking on a 16 year old woman for calling them on their bad behavior.
Can you just call it a pine tree, or use the scientific Pinus. Or maybe stop cutting down trees, which are living things, just so you can place ridiculous decorations on it. If I was a pine tree, I wouldn’t feel very happy about such degrading treatment. And if I was a wild pine tree I would be very displeased with the immoral usage of my fellow species.
Wow, Jessica. I just saw the video of your speech at U Alabama–you’re now officially a hero of mine now!
Thanks for standing up for what’s right and the ideals that this country (and your state, of course) were founded upon. I hope that my two children will end up as smart, articulate, and brave as you are!
Thanks for the inspiration!
What’s a Darwinist?
As a “recovering Catholic”, I cheer you on!
What I find most amusing is that the holiday tree tradition has basically pagan roots, and did not arise out of Christianity at all. People demand adherence to tradition, but they want to cut off tradition at whatever date they find comfortable.
As an aside, Jessica, you might suggest to your neighbors that the school prayer be edited just a bit, so it reads simply “May we have the desire to do our best…” Same message, without the religion. Most of your critics would have to go along, or else show their true colors — and the lawsuit could be dropped, much to the relief of everybody involved.
Dear Jessica,
Your generalizations against christians and christianity leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. There are thousands of christian denomations all over the world, but you paint us all with one brush. Maybe it’s your contempt for christians or GOD! OR maybe it’s the support or the backlash you are getting which forms your unfair oponions about christians.
I read your New York Times story. If it is true, your Athiest beliefs are fueled by sour grapes because God DIDN’T ANSWER YOUR PRAYER! Well who is the spoiled brat now? Because you didn’t get what you wanted, suddenly God doesn’t exist. But I suppose if he did answer, he would of been great God?
Not everything you want you will get! Not everything you want is God’s will, and God hears every prayer, but it doesn’t mean he has to answer, and if he answers, it doesn’t mean he has to answer on our time. I could go on and on about God, but I believe you and your supporting colleagues are convinced that their is no creator (because if there was a creator, why does he allow bad things to happen?). I won’t try to convince you but I would just ask you to do the decent thing. Just admit that you don”t have a problem with prayer, you have a problem with GOD (the bigger picture), who doesn’t answer your prayers.
I am sorry that your prayer didn’t get answered, but thats no reason to fight against a religious schools tradition for your own selfish pleasure. As much as there are athiest, there are Christians also, and if you can’t tolerate christianity especially in a christian school, then just go to one thats not assciated with christianity or move to a different community! Otherwise live and let live.
Such patronizing ignorance.
Atheists do not really exist, no, they are just believers who are angry at god. And Jessica is just resentful that god doesn’t answer her prayers — although she has made her reasons and her beliefs perfectly clear. And obviously, she’s just resentful to christians because of the hateful backlash, how unfair from her. If only she would turn the other cheek and quietly take the abuse, everybody would be happy.
You must feel all nice and cosy in your little self-righteous bubble. I hope it will not hurt your head too much when reality will eventually burst it.
ivo “Atheists do not really exist, no, they are just believers who are angry at god.”
There are usually two strands to atheist thought: first, there is no God, and secondly, I hate him. The first is the outward expression, and the second the inward reality. If you spend any time looking at what atheists say and their underlying attitude, you will discern this anger. Disappointment at what they perceive as something God should do, or else rejection of something specific the bible says they should do or not do. That is far more common as the real reason for atheism than lack of evidence and science.
‘Hateful Christians’ is a contradiction in terms, like having a ‘Christian adulterers’ fellowship’. To be viscious or commit adultery, whilst it may sometimes happen in christian circles, goes diametrically against what Christian faith stands for.
An attitude of contempt (to put it mildly) for believers by atheists, however, is more the norm rather than the exception.
Ken, and all other people with this misconception, atheists do not hate god, we simply do not believe that god(s) exist. We have come to this conclusion based on our reasoning skills. We have individually determined that the likelihood that a god exists at all are infinitesimal, let alone any particular god or gods.
Also, when we make generalizations about Christians and religious people in general we are talking about the people that are the most vocal about it. In most cases it is the people that threaten violence and who do not understand one of the basic principles that this country was founded on, namely freedom of religion. Part of that principle is the idea of separation of church and state, which is the basis for which Jessica took the public school to court. If you don’t want people to speak badly about your group, namely a religious group, then something needs to be done about the people who claim to be a part of your group that repeatedly show their contempt and ignorance of the constitution of this country.
Blake
An attitude of contempt for belief, not believers, should be the norm. It is wrong to respect a belief that parents should forgo necessary medical treatment for their children in favor of prayer. It is erroneous to revere any belief that causes harm to the believer and others, and which leads to more ignorance.
Ignorance is the dominant factor for hate. If someone has an entire belief system that promotes ignorance, then they are more likely to be hateful than beliefs based on skepticism.
It is strange to note that adultery occurs far more often in christian societies than atheist societies. Not only adultery, but teen pregnancy, abortions, murder, theft, child molestation, rape etc. If ever there was to be an adulterers’ fellowship, it would be Christian.
I have never believed in a god and it is incredibly ridiculous to hate something and simultaneously not believe it exists. I do not hate Tinkerbell for not taking me to Neverland. I also do not hate vampires, or superman, or leprechauns.
When I hear a story that a man magically healed people and walked on water, that is considered fantasy. Can you give a reason why you believe a fantasy as reality? How can you believe this fantasy over other fantasies? Do you hate Tinkerbell?
“It is strange to note that adultery occurs far more often in christian societies than atheist societies”
I don’t know where you get this from, but given the premise of atheism, how can you say adultery is wrong?
The wrongness of adultery is revealed in God’s law, which stems from God’s character – always faithful, which is why he requires it from us. Any society where God’s law is honoured, you would expect less murder theft or child abuse etc., these things are inconsistent with a Christian society. Such things cannot possibly be promoted in a godly society.
The existence of God is not remotely comparable to Santa or fairies. The biblical God who created everything and who transcends the universe makes moral demands on us, and in rejecting these I see the underlying fear and hatred of God exhibited by many atheists. That is what is the root of unbelief, not lack of evidence. Unbelief is located in the will, not the intellect.
Adultery is wrong based on the vows taken. For example, if 2 people get “married” in the sense that they vow to each other that they will be loyal to each other, then it is wrong. If the people have a more open relationship in which both parties are OK with the other finding another partner, then it is OK. For me the basis for whether adultery is acceptable or wrong is based on what agreement the people involved reach together.
Blake
Ken, you are partially right, unbelief stems from will as well as intellect, you see, i needed a strong will in order to question my preconceptions. After i decided to question what everyone was telling me I needed my intellect to help me reason through what is real and what is fake.
When we compare the existence of god to the existence of fantasy creatures such as fairies, we really should be comparing god’s existence to the existence of cthulhu or other gods. Why should we believe in the christian god when there are so many other gods out there that other people claim exist. Thor and Odin and Zeus are good examples of these gods. I have seen no evidence that ANY god exists, and even if there were evidence that a god exists, it does not mean that it is any particular god.
The flying spaghetti monster is as likely to exist as the christian god.
Blake
“I don’t know where you get this from”
Comprehensive comparative studies between countries based on religiosity. The evidence is clear that secular morality is superior since it is based on reality.
“but given the premise of atheism”
You still do not seem to understand what that is, given your next statement..
“how can you say adultery is wrong?”
I have a thinking brain and the ability to speak, the same reason you can say certain behaviors are wrong. The difference is that I think about it more, and do not stop with just one book.
“you would expect less murder etc”
Actually you should expect more problems in religious societies, because the people in that society get their morals from a book that teaches immorality, and it shows in the statistics.
“The existence of God is not remotely comparable to Santa or fairies”
They are all claims that are unsubstantiated, they are directly comparable. I include in that list all claims about gods or anything supernatural, since they have yet to be verified.
“Unbelief is located in the will, not the intellect”
Unbelief is positively correlated to intellect, and belief is positively correlated to a weak will.
You really should do some research into this, because you have some serious misconceptions.
And sorry for all the grammatical errors. Have a great day anyway.
Fight her on freedom of speech and shut her down hard and fast. She is denying students right to freedom of speech. Plain and simple. She is forcing her beliefs on everyone else which is no better than organized religion in school,which this isn’t. Her beliefs is an organized group which should also be denied rights from forcing it’s views on others. Her groups beliefs do not trump FREEDOM OF SPEECH just as Religious groups do not trump it .Again I will say it for tone deaf people. This is not organized religion this is FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!!
PS- Jessica,with all due respect ..think long and hard about what I just said when you say you are defending the constitution because you are trampling all over the one very thing that keeps us all free.
If you force one person to call a Christmas tree a holiday tree then you are denying them the right to their freedom of speech and expression. You are still free to view it as a tree,holiday tree whatever,you are not forced to call it anything yet some of you think it is ok to trump the constitution and force others to call it as you see fit? You ultimately are saying my belief trumps your belief..you do not have the right to tell someone what they should call anything just as they do not have the right to tell you what to call it. No one,no group,no belief trumps freedom of speech.
to CP,
the school is not christian, it is a state school and therefore illegal to have a prayer banner.
to kitten,
freedom of speech is for individual freedoms, for instance you can wear a t-shirt with the exact same prayer and you have every right to do that, but since it is a public school a prayer banner is illegal.
As for the tree, the governor chose to call it a holiday tree himself.. you should be fighting for his freedom of speech.
BTW, its a Christmas tree and get over it. It’s just childish. You don’t get to celebrate Christmas or even take part in it (although you are welcome to when you are ready to put your bigotry aside).
You are an Atheist remember? You are not supposed to care about things that are affiliated with Christmas. Go see a movie or something on the holiday and stop trying to encroach on Christmas. If you have a problem with Christmas, Christians or the tree, make your own holiday, or celebrate it on the 21st like you said. Lobby your Government to make National Atheist Day. I (and I’m sure others) would be glad to take it off.
There are so much people with so many beliefs in this country that we get lost trying to please everyone. As a matter of fact, here is a question. What do Muslims do on Christmas? DEAL WITH IT, THAT’S WHAT! Some even take part!
Christmas is a federal holiday because the country was founded on the principle of God. Simple. God is also on the US Dollar, in addition to the so called “all seeing eye illumunati” sign (this eye is also the logo for CBS– so they say).
The point is, if you don’t like it, do like everyone else an ignore it AND DON’T TAKE PART. Many people and many things offend me on a daily basis. A good example would be males and saggy pants. You don’t see me launching a campaign because I believe that God hates saggy pants and it offends me.
to CP,
you are free to call it a christmas tree if you wish, and the governor is free to call it a holiday tree. And I, as an athiest am free to call it a pine tree.
Dear Jessica,
I am hoping that you will weed through some of the more off-base comments to see this. BEFORE you try to do anything in the name of Roger Williams or for that matter any other figure in history you should directly contact a member of that person’s family..I have not brought up any of your family members names in regards to any of the causes I feel strongly about. As a tax payer, as a direct descendent of Roger Williams , you should have stopped your research at the word “FREEDOM”. As you grow older you will be forced to see all types of signs, articles,stories on subjects you do not agree with-should that give you or any other person the right to remove it just so you do not see it? Why not find a cause that will make a difference in YOUR life, you are entering adulthood-find those things that you can change to make your life more enjoyable-school is a very short time.
Obviously my post does not focus on any religious views or constitutional ones-If I thought the school was making the children pray or to deviate away from our constitutional rights, I would be right there at your side defending you.
Hey Rob..
If you don’t get in what I am saying as protecting everyone’s freedom of speech then you need to read again what I wrote. I said no one has the right to tell you what to call a tree but that protection goes both ways even into the govt level as Freedom of Speech is a guaranteed personal liberty that is the core of ALL OUR FREEDOMS!!!!
I believe in protecting everyone’s freedom of speech and last time I checked Freedom of Speech is not outlined as to what applicable surfaces it may be applied to. Can you show me that in law form ? LOL !! The law you speak of is to protect against organized beliefs being use to make others conform to those beliefs. That is exactly what she is doing. It is beyond hypocritical. It is a banner done by a student. The students are not forced to believe or conform to this banner. It is one students take on their view of their world. So to be fair and protect all freedom of speech she has a right to paint scientific quotes stating her views but she doesn’t have the right to demand it’s removal because she is offended. She has a right to voice her views of disagreement,she has a right to not believe. But she NEVER has the right EVER to trample on others beliefs and force her views on a school and make them conform to her believes just as a religious organization doesn’t. A painted mural is NOT organized religion. However,her beliefs are part of a group(s) that are trying to collectively force their groups beliefs on others and that is just as damning as religious groups doing the same thing. If someone reads this.. I am telling you push the Freedom of speech and fight them with the same tools. Her organized collective beliefs do not trump freedom of speech on any level govt or public. To allow this to happen sets a dangerous precedence as well as her own freedom of speech to be denied in the future.
to tracie,
we will all see many signs, articles and stories on subjects that we do not agree with, that is not the problem. If those signs are in state funded buildings then it does deviate away from the constitution under the ‘separation of church and state’ and you, as jessica has, should be defending it.
to kitten,
noone forced the governor to say holiday tree, he chose that himself. Are you saying he does not have the right to do that?
Also are you telling me it is less offensive to see a banner maybe in passing once or twice a day but when students who stand up for their rights start wearing shirts with the same prayer and she then sees it everywhere and tenfold,,then what? She might have gotten rid of the banner but now she sees it more than ever when people further practice their freedom of speech. So now by her own accord she has to look at the “offensive item” constantly. How will she cope? If she can’t cope with one banner,one expression of Freedom of Speech how will she cope with a 100 people expressing it,500 etc etc? Why is she so conflicted by it when she sees it? Does it pause her to think about her life? about what she does or doesn’t beleive? Since when do we deny freedom of speech or condemn a student having a view outside of hers that god forbid causes her to reflect on her own? Since when do we praise someone who is afraid to have to face conflicting views ? Since when do we pander to this? Do some of you not see how completely asinine this is? How will she cope when they further exercise their freedom of speech rights she is likely to see it everywhere, I mean the people in the town could buy advertising space and it could be posted everywhere. They could post the prayer in signs on their yard ,on the backs of their cars etc etc. How will she cope as an adult when she is exposed to others freedom of speech that she doesn’t agree with? Seems like to me she is working herself into being housebound because her parents didn’t teach her the fundamentals of getting along in society and that in a free society not everyone marches to the same beat of the drum and that Freedom of Speech is a personal liberty guaranteed to everyone and no ones beliefs ever trump that. EVER!! I am not sure that when this glory train ride is over and these people with an agenda are done using her and she realizes that in this she forced people to stand up for their rights that she will be so smitten with herself when she has been used up for an agenda and then left to face the prayer more times than she ever had before.
It has nothing to do with whether she is offended or not. I has to do with it being illegal under the constitution.
Hi Jessica, I wholeheartedly support your actions in Rhode Island and wish you continued luck in all you do up there and elsewhere protecting freedom from religious persuasion. Well done!
I do slightly disagree with your Christmas tree argument, but only slightly. It is a Christmas tree, not a holiday tree. Everyone who sees it knows its a symbol of Christmas, whether theyre Christian or not. Its not a holiday tree; it doesnt have anything to do with Hannukah or any other religion’s celebrations. If there was a menorah in the center of town, nobody would call it a Holiday Menorah, it’s a Hannukah Menorah.
The point, though, is that cities probably shouldnt be putting up trees or menorahs in the center of town with government funds, unless maybe they put a few different things out there too. Honestly I dont think putting up a Christmas tree is the same as, say, putting up a crucifix in the center of town for Easter, because Christmas has been so bastardized that a tree means nothing really to Christians anyway at this point. I think it’s important to know which battles to take and which to leave alone. But regardless, fare thee well, great work again!
ROB…let me hold your hand and walk you through this. I am saying he has the right to call it whatever the hell he likes. I am saying no one has the right to force him to call it a Christmas tree and in that no one has a right to force someone to call it a Holiday tree because Christmas tree offends them. Freedom of Speech is just that. One groups beliefs cannot trump FREEDOM OF SPEECH FOR ANYONE even at the govt level!!! So what I ma saying is even a govenor has a right to call the tree whatever the hell he likes and if his secretary or public disagrees ,oh freakin well. But in the same token,if an official called it a Christmas tree then you only have a right to be offended but you do not have the right to force someone to change their “speech” to suit you.
and noone has forced him to say it, I will say it again. He CHOSE to say holiday tree.
ok ive missed something.. who forced what official to call it holiday tree?
Freedom of Speech is not illegal. One students freedom of speech and expression is NOT organized religion. Separation of church and state protects from organized believes being implemented and regulated to the population. Her beliefs are organized and there are groups and what she is doing is forcing one groups of beliefs on a set of people to be implemented,so in hindsight she is the one who is breaking separation of church and state technically,even though this isn;t a church ,it is a group that has a set of beliefs and it is unconstitutional for any organized group to force and implement their beliefs on another group.
A banner,which is an inanimate object just as a t-shirt is cannot be constituted as a church or a group. So tell me how a wall constitutes a religious organization ?
So your ok with everyone who chooses to walk around in school with a tshirt with said prayer on it but you are trying to convince others that one wall constitutes a religious organization? Gimme me a break. Your logic is seriously flawed. You and many others really should step back and do some critical thinking.
Poor Rob..either you are a troll or you are just plain ignorant. I am explaining freedom of speech to you as the Christmas/holiday tree is another hot topic of debate regarding separation of church and state. I am trying to explain to you that we are allowed different views and expressions,they are guaranteed personal liberties that no one has the right to take away. An inanimate object from a cross to a tree doesn’t constitute a religious organization which thus makes the separation of church and state a void argument in these cases. These case have to do with freedom of speech.
firstly, can you please leave smaller comments.
the difference is that a t-shirt is on an individual, and is their right under freedom of speech. the ‘prayer’ banner is on a ‘government’ funded school, the separation of church (the prayer) and state (the school) means that the banner is illegal.
in regards to the tree, the separation of church and state means that the government cannot explicitly promote one religion over another. so if a governor says christmas tree, he is doing just that. i personally would prefer him to call a pine tree with decorations on it
@ Rob
You said: “It has nothing to do with whether she is offended or not. It has to do with it being illegal under the constitution.”
You seriously believe that this isn’t personal Rob?
This is what the New York Times stated:
Jessica said she had stopped believing in God when she was in elementary school and her mother fell ill for a time.
“I had always been told that if you pray, God will always be there when you need him,” she said. “And it didn’t happen for me, and I doubted it had happened for anybody else. So yeah, I think that was just like the last step, and after that I just really didn’t believe any of it.”
Seems spoilt to me. Big ole God, ruler of the universe, Alpha and Omega, etc etc didn’t answer my prayer. So now there is no God? Ugh!
Lets say I got cheated on by the majority of my girlfriends. Suddenly all women are cheating whores? But I will tell you what, all these bad women allow me to appreciate the good woman when I get her. Just because Jessica didn’t get an answer then, doesn’t mean God won’t answer her. But hold on Rob, THAT’S FAITH? Do Atheist have faith or is it all logical (I am being serious here)? Can’t see God, so he isn’t there?
Rob lets stop the charade. Probably for you it is the constitution, but for her, it seems to me SOUR GRAPES.
to cp,
a complaint was made to the school before she got involved. jessica had seen the banner many times and didnt really care, it was only when it was put forward to the school that the banner was illegal did she get involved.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech
That is the clause.
Is there an establishment of religion for this school being made by congress? NO
Is there a prohibition of freedom of Speech? YES but not against her though unless she was denied her right to disagree or paint her own damn wall or denied her own set of beliefs by being told she must believe ABC. SHE is the one prohibiting free speech by forcing others to conform and abide by her beliefs.
It states nothing about where or what freedom of speech is allowed on or in. It guarantees the rights that no ones freedom of religion will be prohibted including her own.
yeah that is the clause, now go and look at the court cases that have occurred since then.
Then those court rulings are wrong and unconstitutional readings. So you condone this? Then you my friend have helped to open the pandora’s box to rulings on matters that one day may affect your freedoms. Maybe when that happens you will not be quite so smug and content with yourself.
So you think we should keep the same laws exactly as they are stated for hundreds of years even though everything else has changed in that time? That is how the law progresses, cases are brought before the courts and rulings are made to improve or make more relevant the original laws.
Would you be asking me this if it was a guaranteed personal liberty you cared about? It is only because you care not about one thing that you justify trampling on freedom of speech in order to achieve your agenda. What has changed? People have been believers or non believers since the time of Jesus. Faith or non faith isn’t just an American thing.
So you think it is ok for an established group of non believers to dictate their believes to the rest of the population? Do you not find the hypocrisy in this? You think it is ok to kill one freedom so you feel”validated” or “free”? Free from what? By oppressing one part of the population you have opened the door to your own oppression by treading all over a fundamental law that protected us all. The law works fine in that people have a right to choose. NOW with these cases some of the population has been stripped of their rights and you think this is ok and doesn’t open the door to you being stripped of rights because someone else comes along and says..but we have changed..we don’t agree..Gimme me a break.
Tell me what part of that constitution infringes on your rights? Tell me what part of it threatens your personal liberties? It guarantees you from not being forced into organized religion and it protects your freedom of speech.. Please tell me what the hell is so daming about that?
I understand and agree. To begin with, “Our Heavenly Father” and “Amen” automatically make it a prayer to some “being”. If they wanted to invoke secular values collectively, they could have left those parts out and begun with something like, “We the students pledge ourselves to these values….”. They didn’t.
It is a hard and noble path to stand against the crowd. Your bravery is inspiring and appreciated. We have so few people truly willing to stand up for the Constitution, thank you for doing so.
But none of the population have been stripped of their rights, state sponsored schools have just been prohibited from certain religious activities such as prayer. The rights of the individuals and non government organizations are still free to do what they want. You as an individual can still pray or wear a t-shirt with a prayer on it, your rights have not changed at all.
Not an atheist here, agnostic myself….but i beleive everyone’s spiritual journey is their own and atheism in itself is a spiritual journey. If you can be a decent human being without being thumped upside the head everyday by an outdated 3000 year old text….i applaud that. I am so utterly sick and tired of religion in this world i want it wiped out. Good for Jessica, even though i think that little prayer in and of itself is relatively harmless…..it’s still the principal of the matter. I hate using slippery slope arguments but I loathe the middle east and I feel like we’re slouching towards a religous theocracy that will mirror fundamentalist islam exactly but since it will christian in nature it will “obviously” not be viewed as such because religion blinds people so profoundly. Things get worse economically in this country and the god f’cks come to greater power because they will be swilling their brew of “we’re not fundamentalist enough” christians even though the economy went into the crapper because we have a boom and bust cycle economic system imposed on us by the .005%. The Federal reserve printed of 26 trillion dollars to wallstreet, this was aside from TARP, behind our backs with no oversight. The true evil people in this world are the ones who have controlling us through religious doctrine all the while they rape the energy from us, our labor, by a monetary system that they control and print off paper as they see fit. The “bust” in the economic cycle only affects us. The ROman Catholic church has gotten unreal wealthy from this free printing of U.S dollars. Catholic charities is a 2B in revenue business but they still another almost 3B in govt subsidies. That’s B for “Billion” in case someone doesnt’ get it. Then they have the unmitigated gall to say well we just don’t know how to stay in business if we don’t get those subsidies becuase the govt wants to force us to non discriminate against gays and lesbians IF we want to keep those subsidies. This is why that prayer has to go…..right here. Religious institutions have grown WAY WAY WAY too comfortable and powerful. Every last vestige of their influence has to be wiped from the public. They are crooks and swine. So even though i beleive in a higher power…..i want to live under an atheist rule. Everyone can beleive in what they want, congregate wherever they please on sundays….or whatever f’ing day they want…..but their shit doens’t get near govt. PERIOD!!!
to alexb,
atheism is not a spiritual journey, everyone is born an atheist.
I would have to disagree with you on this. Atheism, like any other worldview or state of mind, is something beyond a newborn’s comprehension. Therefore, its just as likely that a baby is born an Atheist as they are Christian, Muslim, Pagan, or any other worldview. We are born as “blank slates” and nothing more.
Ciriccok and Rob…
Thank you for making my point. The school didn’t paint the prayer a STUDENT did.. so if they are still free to practice that then this should be a non issue. To deny a student to paint,speak or pray is a denial of their freedoms.. hands down. She is standing against the constitution not for it. Give her a paintbrush and let her paint a mural and we can call it even ,it is whole lot better in the way of bridging the gaps and differences in humanity to build a bridge of understanding than to to stand in defiance,ignorance and self motivated hatred. that causes a divide and animosity is not to be considered honorable…try being a true leader and bring people together for a change. Your freedom is their Freedoms..lose one..you lose all..
Laters.
well then it is graffiti and should be removed
Hey, Jessica.
I’m in support of the removal of the prayer from your high school, and I’m a Christian. I also think it is ridiculous that people are so furious about a tree being called a, “Holiday Tree.” I guess I would understand more if the tree was the symbol for Christianity, but even then, we don’t worship a cross, we believe we worship God, and we certainly don’t need a symbol to do it. Further, I don’t know of an Atheist who became a Christian, nor a Christian who became an Atheist, because of an argument.
“Our Heavenly Father, grant us each day the desire to do our best, to grow mentally and morally as well as physically, to be kind and helpful. Amen.”
I don’t think Christians have a compelling reason to leave this up until we take seriously what it says–to be kind and helpful–and our actions prove our commitment. But I believe that at the end of the day, it won’t be a wall with a prayer that does it, but the God it was meant to be spoken to.
And when I read this, it broke my heart because I know how true it is: “Voice your beliefs. Go ahead. No one ever told you not to. However, both of you are incredibly rude and ignorant. Have any idea how many people read this and were afraid to DEFEND me for fear that the ‘good Christians’ would start bullying them too?”
I’d like to know why you believe what you believe, and what it is you believe, because I’m guessing there is more to it than just, “There is no god(s).” If there’s a way to contact you, like an e-mail address, I would love to correspond with you. We are all believing people, we just believe different things, and rather than arguing, let’s work toward understanding, because that leads to reconciling.
Congratulations on following through with your cause!
Jessica, I want you to know I am praying for you. I think your right in wanting to support the Constitution. However, I think anyone, especially if they’re atheist, should understand what Christians believe. There are always going to be judgmental Christians out there but not everyone is. There are judgmental atheists. In fact, we can all be a little judgmental and hateful. One of my favorite quotes is, “If there were no God, there would be no atheists.” I would be curious to know what you think of the gov’t violating the rights of Catholic employers (all Catholics) forcing them to provide health coverage for sterilization, abortion drugs and contraception. I just want to know if your beliefs really match what you preach. This law will violate what a Catholic conscience believes and obviously goes against our Religious freedom. Would you support that cause as well?
and there ya have it from AlexB…and I quote “.i want to live under an atheist rule. ”
So here ya have the truth folks. It isn’t about protecting their freedoms it is about setting forth an agenda and forcing the rest of the population to live and believe as they do. So at all cost including treading on constitutional freedoms that protect us from ANY kind of oppression they through a false veil suggest their freedoms are being trampled all the while putting their agenda into place to oppress others freedoms and beliefs not realizing by doing this they have sealed their own fate for a louder group to come along and do the same thing to them.
Jessica,you are being used as nothing more than a pawn in a bigger agenda. I seriously hope what I have written will cause you to reflect on your actions and a bigger picture of the possible outcome..
I cannot post here anymore Alex’s comment is sickening and I don’t even practice a faith.
That’s right ROB it is art!!!!! You or anyone else has no right to demand it’s removal.
Dear Jessica, It’s great that you have stood up for your values and our Constitution. I read the school prayer in the NY Times article and had a thought that might mend some bridges. The content of the prayer is not religious, just the fact that it starts and closes as a prayer. It would be easy to write up a poem or statement with the same sentiments as to conduct and sportmanship etc., but no reference to the heavenly father or Amen, and gift it to the school as a replacement. If you made it the same size it could replace the tarp and make a new, positive memory for the school. Just a thought from a fellow nonbeliever. – Stephanie
Jessica,
I’ve taken some time to read your blog. I hope you will read mine…
http://wp.me/pCSwV-BU
Peace.
H. Conley
to kitten,
the student either got permission to paint it or not. if the student did not then it is graffiti and should be removed. if the student did get permission from the state funded school then this would be illegal under the constitution and should be removed.
How so..does it establish a religion directed by congress? NO!!! An ianimate piece of art doesn’t establish a religious organization.
Does it prohibit Free Speech- NO!!
Again I ask you to show me in the constitution where it says FREE SPEECH IS ALLOWED only in certain places or on certain things..
Good Job,
If a religion is threatened by one 16 year old girl then that religion is obviously aware that it’s existence is based on a tenuous relationship to reality.
If a the supporters of religion can’t see the validity of others that disagree with it then those supporters but understand the concept of free will that their own religion claims is a gift from their creator.
Finally, if the mob comes after you, well, run for your life. But, if the mob is against you then you must have touched upon something true that disturbs them.
When you run for political office, I’d be happy to vote for you.
Rob,
And to others who may have misunderstood my post earlier, maybe you did not realize that I stated that if the school was having the children pray or making an unconstitutional issue, I would be the first to stand beside this child who is making this into something it is not:
1. This is not a page out of a bible, this is a poem that a young boy wrote 50 years ago, so I am not sure where separation of church and state comes into play. It says God and amen-I’ve heard plenty of non-religious people say them 2 words without meaning they were heading to church and about to perform some act in the name of_____. Are we now going to say that certain pre-requisite reading material for elementary children that contain any type of religious annotation should be banned? What about our history as a nation? What about the musings of a 7th grade boy? Jessica did not contact any of my family members that I am aware of, did she contact this now 60 year old man if he wanted his banner returned? These are the things that ADULTS would/should do.
2. I as well as all others that are posting here are exposed to certain reading material-we consciously make the decision to either ignore it or to make an issue of them, keeping in mind that we are truely the land of the free.
Maybe certain folks just want a podium, or pardon the pun but an outlet for a “holier than thou” attitude-if so, please feel free to complain to the correct people, on a 16 year old child’s site may not be the most productive place.
As a side note I did pass a church the other day in NH with a sign that literally said “welfare is not a job”, I muttered an amen but felt no more religious or warped than I already am.
Kitten, you fundamentally lack an understanding of what living under an Atheist rule means. Under an Atheism everyone is free to pratice f’ck all they please….they just can’t hang it on others. If such a world bothers you than it is you who sicken me on a fundamental level and are exactly the kind of person i was referring to in my post……ie people who make the world “SUCK”.
I think you want to use the phrase “secular rule” not Atheist rule.
Also FGS quit using quotation marks to denote emphasis.
“If a religion is threatened by one 16 year old girl then that religion is obviously aware that it’s existence is based on a tenuous relationship to reality.”
This
“It isn’t about protecting their freedoms it is about setting forth an agenda and forcing the rest of the population to live and believe as they do”
really? that’s what you got out of my writing? i’m tempted to explain to you further how being under an atheist govt is exactly the opposite of what you just describe here but I feel i will be talking to a wall.
H. Conley….in your blog you “repeatedly” refer to Jessica as a puppet. Passive aggressive condescension maybe? From what i’ve read “puppet” doesn’t seem to reflect on who Jessica is. Maybe people are just so tired of what the ABrahamic religions have done to the world they don’t want to be reminded of it “even in the slightest” on a daily basis. I’m not really sure if it would bother me or not quite frankly….I mean Christianity, Judaism, Islam all bother me “intensely”. I tend to keep away from stuff that reminds me of the filth that has been dumped in this realm by them…..but if i was subjected to a daily reminder of it maybe i would feel the same way as Jessica, i don’t know. But she’s standing up for what she beleives in and is no puppet.
Oh, Mr/Mrs/Ms Conley is full of passive agressive. S/he excuses all the hatred poured on Jessica in this namby-pamby nice-guy tone, as well
I’ve left a comment over there calling him/her on all of this (except I should have called him/her on accusing Jessica of being manipulated) already, but it remains to be seen whether it will disappear in moderation.
…. If it does disappear I’ll post it over here.
Feel free to repost all you like… I’ve actually removed my own blog entry because in less than an hour one of you ‘supporters’ have tried to turn this into a fight. That was not my purpose. It’s funny how when someone tries to have a debate without attacking the person, you call it ‘namby-pamby’. I meant what I said about wishing only good things for her. Just because I disagree with her actions doesn’t mean I dislike her or wish her ill.
I was looking for thought-provoking debate, not hate. My comments about being a puppet were not passive-aggressive. I just think that when an organization asks a teenager to be the face of a lawsuit and leave her to take the heat, they are using her. I’m not saying she doesn’t stand firm in her beliefs of non-beliefs, just that adults should protect her not exploit her.
As far as thinking I condone the people threatening her is just wrong. I stated many times how I feel that is wrong and I meant it.
Well, I will bow out now as I meant what I said about not believing in the threatening nature that Jessica has been treated. It’s wrong and the tone set here is only aimed at provoking hate.
So I will be ‘namby-pamby’ again and say ‘peace’ to ALL of you and wish you well.
H.
To Rob………”atheism is not a spiritual journey, everyone is born an atheist”
point taken….but you’re talking to someone who beleives we were somewhere before this and will be somewhere after this….and somewhere after that and so on and so forth. So from my perspective when someone chooses to live a lifetime free of a beleif in a higher power that’s a personal decision they make and it’s their relationship to the universe, if you will. I personally beleive I’m beholden to something greater than what i can perceive in this minimialist state of consciousness. Now what that is i can’t explain nor would I even if I could because that in turn becomes tampering with someone else’s path. Everybody’s relationship with the universe is their own and no one else’s. I may very well have been an atheist in a past life…i was an atheist for awhile in this one. Now I just beleive in my own path….wherever that goes. There’s a fire to this existence that’s been taken from us and I intend to rediscover it so I may not be subjected anymore to the profuse corruption that pervades this realm upwards and downwards and every which way right up ur b hole. I’m tired of it.
Kitten
AlexB is not Jessica, so don’t judge her by what he says. You’d be very upset if I judged you by what Westboro Baptist says and does.
Do you understand the fundamental difference between government and a private individual or business or even a church? Government is FORCE. The first amendment was written in an effort to protect us from efforts by the government to make us think or profess in ways we do not agree with; it’s all about freedom of conscience. That’s the common thread throughout the whole of the first amendment (not just the freedom of religion and establishment clause parts of it). Government should not, and should not allow itself to be used by others, to push any religious viewpoint, in large part because it can ultimately force itself on people. Yes, government should not interfere with churches. But it also should not be used BY churches to interfere with the unchurched! That’s the flip side. Atheists cannot use it to beat on the religious and the religious cannot use it to beat on atheists or the other religions. Government must be kept strictly neutral or you might one day find yourself forced to pony up your hard earned money in taxes, knowing the government’s going to use it in propaganda against the things you prize.
The wall of Jessica’s high school was built with tax dollars, is maintained by tax dollars, and anything put on it is implicitly endorsed… with your tax dollars and mine.. by the one institution that is allowed to use force to get its way. And with that prayer up there on that wall, that government is endorsing Judeo-Christianity to a captive audience that includes non-Judeo Christians. There should be NO religious message there, there should be NO anti-religious message there either. Government should let the issue alone. To have it do otherwise is not an expression of free speech but a violation of it; the government is using my money against my beliefs, or someone else’s against theirs.
If somehow you don’t see the problem here after all I’ve done to explain it, how would you feel if your government spent your tax money, or government property you paid for with your taxes, to advertise for Islam? Would you consider it free speech on the part of Muslims? Oh, but the Muslims aren’t a majority here, you say? What if they were? How freaked out would you be to see the government pushing it then? It would be WORSE, wouldn’t it?
she thinks atheism is something I want forced on her, that’s the intellectual leap she is incapable of making when she mis interpreted my comment that i want to live under an atheist govt. An atheist govt would not force atheism on anyone…it would just keep religion out of the collective rule.
That’s why I suggest you use the phrase “secular government” to describe what you are after, as Freedom From Religion Foundation does.
Yes,I understand the fundamental differences .
Now to answer your statement about govt pushing something views on someone. You are correct the separation of amendment protects us from being forced into a single belief.
Is congress forcing a religious belief at this school? NO Is Jessica? YES,while not religious in it’s intent,it is an organized group and system of beliefs that SHE is pushing on another group. So while you condemn religious organizations from doing this you you praise and condone another group for doing the very same thing. A wall with art and words doesn’t establish a religious organization it clearly reflects someones view of the world and their freedom of speech which you seem to forget about in this separation of church clause. An object is not nor can it ever be an organized religion. It cannot act. It cannot force. It cannot oppress. The real issue is denial of another’s groups FREEDOM OF SPEECH and this is a liberty guaranteed to anyone including govt employees. It is a clause that protects us ALL. It doesn’t dictate who can or can;t have it,the law dictates it is unlawful to deny anyone that freedom. It doesn’t state where freedom of speech/expression is allowed. ..because the intent is to be everywhere.
Fair enough on your point that all or none. I am inclined to agree with this,so why deny someone’s freedom of speech when she could have took brush in hand and painted her own view. Because the way she went about it also treaded on her future right to express herself. Wouldn’t she have been better served to fight for her space there than trample all over rights that not only belong to others but herself?
To answer your last paragraph,the school has not paid for religious advertisement so your last point is mute as it was created as art!!! I am with you all or none,I prefer all because that is the highest road to building bridges versus destroying them and teaches our kids to work together versus against..that would be the true sign of a leader with good intent..harm none and remember the threefold law..what you put out you get back threefold…but it looks like Jessica helped to pave the road to none,including her own beliefs…sadly.
Jessica,
I just heard about your case from a friend over at a forum called Is God Imaginary? (sorry, I don’t always keep up with things).
Congratulations on winning your case. I think you did the right thing. It is extremely important for our nation’s government to remain as religion-neutral as it can, in order for all of our citizens to feel that they have a true home here and that their views matter.
As a Christian, I would like to apologize for the behavior of the professing Christians that have been giving you grief. I am sorry that some have treated you disrespectfully over this.
I like your “Cookie” analogy. It made me chuckle. As though calling it a “holiday tree” matters…..
You are a very busy young woman right now, but if you feel like chatting in a (mostly) supportive environment, please feel free to drop by Is God Imaginary sometime. We are a mixed-group who discuss faith and lack thereof and politics and whatever else comes to mind…. ( The thread where your name comes up is here: http://isgodimaginary.com/forum/index.php/topic,49963.0.html )
Shalom,
Shawna
You insult the Christian response to the Christmas tree situation and insult people who stand up for their beliefs, yet you cost the taxpayers who knows how much because the words “Our Heavenly Father” and “Amen” offend you.
Really?
You call them spoiled yet you parade your cause like only your opinion is correct. You want the whole cookie and want someone else to pay for it.
To Jessica ~
I am an evangelical, theologically conservative Christian, a graduate of a conservative evangelical liberal arts college, a seminary graduate, a former faculty member at two evangelical colleges, a former principal of a conservative Christian high school, and a former director of a divinity school Doctor of Ministry in Leadership program (well – you get the picture) and as I’ve read today of what you are trying to do I have been moved to write to you to say I am so very appalled at the treatment you’ve received in response to your courageous and thoughtful project.
It appears to me as a life-long educator that your honestly, dedication, maturity and very serious effort go well beyond what teachers and parents hope to see in students.
I don’t know that I agree with your stance. (I like to take some time to think this kind of thing through thoroughly.) But I will say that regardless of how my own stance develops, I never understand how my Christian brothers and sisters feel threatened by such things. The protections for anyone to live out their faith is protected in our country in the very strongest way by law and tradition. I don’t see that your success will leave Christians any less well protected. It is likely, in fact, that reminding the government that it has no right to promote any one faith over another will even strengthen that great protection for Christians and people of all religious traditions.
Christianity – and Christians – should seek to serve and to bring love closer to the center of life by their actions each day. When they do not pass that test, they are at odds with our Creator.
As a father of two daughters, I hope you will take very good care of yourself, Jessica, and encourage you to do that. Do not underestimate hatred in the hands of those making misguided claims that they are looking out for the interests of God.
With appreciation,
James Bailey
Alex..do yourself a favor and re read everything I wrote prior to you and re-read what I wrote you. Do not put words in my mouth that suit you or your agenda of fear and doom and gloom. I speak on fact,law and in retrospect of everyone’s rights. Not just one group in paticular and if you are certain you want to dare go down this road of debate with me ,I suggest you prepare yourself with facts and throw away your self serving argument that only fits one group I speak for no group but as a whole. If you looked at the picture as a whole your argument and vision sets a dangerous precedence by rule by only one belief ,your fear is unfounded in one argument yet you justify it when it suits your agenda. But leave your intelligence cuts by the waste side because if that is all you have to bring to the table then don’t bother coming.
I didn’t mis interpret your comment. I called it out. An atheist govt you say? So,let’s see if I get this right,then so am I to assume that if someone that had beliefs unlike yours would be denied govt employment because it didn’t suit a groups view as a whole and you have the audacity to say you fear religious control? You would rather have our govt consist of your viewpoints rather than have represenatives elected by a majority instead you suggest that better freedom and less oppression is by dictating as to what beliefs are allowed in govt.? Do you honestly not see the huge flaw in this.. Obviously not because you are self driven with no respect for others freedoms and beliefs. Respect is a two way street and diversity is what this country was founded on and is.
I would love to hear how all these years you have been oppressed as an atheist? Do tell? Art,words and crosses are not oppressions..neither is the money in your wallet that allows you the freedom to go,speak,paint etc..So IN “God We trust “on it,while you don;t believe in it it in no way oppresses your freedom of speech but reflects the history of this country and is not detrimental to your well being or ability or freedom to think otherwise.
Like it or not it is the history of this country,it has a place here and it will always have a place here and it has coexisted peacefully for many years and please don’t try and yank the Native argument on me as I am half cherokee.
The constitution protects religion as well as non religion, The bottom line to this case is it has no founding reason that it should be removed. If it is on a t-shirt it has to respected as free speech yet not on a wall. So you people would rather see it 500 times versus once in a blue moon on a wall to keep you from feeling oppressed.. Seriously,go blow smoke up someone elses a$$. This case is about freedom of speech being trampled by someone who has opposing views who is now trying to oppress free speech and push a group view on others and that is in direct conflict with the constitution(please see all previous post). It is basically art and poetry done by a student. An inanimate object doesn’t constitute religious organization no more than a t-shirt would. Or is that next,you are going to dictate what someone can wear because it makes you feel oppressed.. Whats next no one can read a book in a school library that someone mentions a church or God in passing even if a non religious book? Are we to leave out history of this country because woe is me feels oppressed because someone has another belief or opinion outside of your own? So the world should cater to only one group and the rest should conform? Isn’t that what you are accusing another group of doing? Your opinion reeks of hypocrisy and is about as far away from the personal liberties we ALL were guaranteed when you suggest a atheist or secular rule. A Christian man has as much right to be in office as does an atheist and it is that way to represent and protect everyone and they have to work side by side within the confines of the law that was set forth to assure laws were based fairly and everyone was represented and protected.
Kit i don’t even know where to begin but suffice to say your response proves that you indeed misinterpret and not read a single f’ing thing i said. I am not an atheist, do you understand that? I just don’t beleive in the abrahamic visions of god.
and again you’re stating that an atheist govt that i want to be installed would “force” atheism on us. That is complletely the opposite of A) what i am espousing and B) what would actually happen.
Only religious theocratic govts force their religion on people. Under and Atheist govt people’s own personal feelings about god are kept out of govt “IN ENTIRETY”. Govt is to rule based “SOLELY” on the circumstances that our present in our current reality. Human history is replete with failed govts and empires that couldn’t keep god out of the equation.
Steve..
I didn’t compare her to Alex. I am not sure where you got that from. I asked her to see the light of what he is saying and compare that to what I am saying.
Also secular govt versus atheist government ? Are you suggesting he call it that because it gives i a prettier name but uncovered is the same agenda. Sorry it doesn’t make it more acceptable or legal to give it a prettier name. It still is what it is. One group who believes they trump[ constitutional freedoms and who feel they have the right to determine what one should believe or not believe. You cannot protect freedoms if you have the mindset that only secular views matter and you cannot have a fair govt if you dictate what views the officials are allowed to have. That is why you have laws that dictate the realms in which they can work in..no more no less and creates a fair representation of every person in this diverse nation.
Way to utterly ignore my much longer post.
You have no meaningful answer to it, do you? You just want to fixate on your nightmare vision of a government that forces atheism down everyone’s throats.
Which NO ONE HERE IS ADVOCATING.
“One group who believes they trump[ constitutional freedoms and who feel they have the right to determine what one should believe or not believe”
omg sweetie please read then re-read both my statements then steve’s. NO ONE is advocating people to be forced into atheism…..f’ck sake.
and no what jessica is doing is actually not against the constitution…it’s “in line” with it. Of course you’d have to actually know something about the constitution to get that.
Whoa.hold on Alex in my original reply to you. I copied and pasted your own statement. You stated and again I quote again… “. I want to live under an atheist rule. ”. Kinda speaks for itself and it is your own fault if someone misunderstands your statement because it reads rather clear..
It it is pointless to debate with you when you are as far left as some are far right.
I know plenty about the constitution and I addressed this in my many other post which you have failed to rebuttal anything but the atheist govt topic. I even broke it down in a post to Rob. You have failed to answer one of my questions. I think I know why but it doesn’t matter because you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink and until one is objective enough to look at it from both sides then you will only continue to see the facts that suit your closed mind. Best to you.
I have responded to your questions in detail..Best.
No i have replied to your statements and questions,Steve. Best.
If there are any art students from this school who would like to recreate this piece on canvas,let me know and I will donate a huge one along with paint mediums of your choice that can be hung with the rest of the art created there.
There’s not much I can say that hasn’t been said already but I feel compelled to offer a few words. If it offers even the smallest support, I’ll still be happy. It’s fascinating to see people still willing to put everything they have into something they believe in, even in the face of overwhelming opposition. Many religions often forget they were once in the minority as well and facing the same kind of absolute ostracizing that they are trying to inflict on others. It’s a shame to see people, of any religion or lack thereof, act in the ways they sometimes do. Maybe it’s just a necessary evil of passion.
These kinds of campaigns, successful and not, are never about attacking religion. They are about inclusion, fairness, and freedom for everyone. They are about ensuring our public systems treat religion as it should be treated, a personal matter, and leave it out educational matters. Schools should be at the forefront of leaving outside influences behind to promote education. There is no uniform belief system that will make families all magically perfect, education magically improve, or anything of the sort.
Having christen, atheist, or any values take a roll in our governmental and educational processes is a terrible idea. They are not meant to get involved, but to teach, or govern. And freedom of expression does not mean freedom to impose beliefs on others.
For those christens and believers of other denominations that understand this, who believe in something higher then themselves privately, and don’t see the end of the world coming when there isn’t a religious quote or prayer in every aspect of government and education…I commend you. If believing makes your life stronger, or if your faith is strong enough to believe without fail, that is also a value that has merit.
For those, such as myself, who choose not to live their lives in a religious manner, who do not press lack of belief on others or try to cut down those beliefs…I commend you. The lack of belief is in many ways a belief in itself and must be understood to be a personal value rather than a factual value. Even though science has offered us great insight in how the world works, it may be quite a long time before we can (if at all) disprove the potential of influences greater than the laws we know.
In the end, I’ll just say congratulations Jessica for having the willpower to follow through with such tenacity when others would seek to stop you. I can say with relative certainty that sort of spirit will reward you well in the future.
Bryan B.
to kitten,
when alex said he wanted to live under atheist rule, everyone seems to understand what he meant except you. what he means is pretty much every other western civilized country except for America, which coincidentally have better quality education and health systems, and far less crime and unemployment.
Wouldn’t religious freedom be anyone being able to celebrate or display words or symbols of their religion without others making them take it down (censorship)? Is that not what the constitution is based on. Didn’t the founding fathers that are so often referenced in this website come to America to avoid religious persecution? That persecution being getting away from the Catholic church that at the time was largely influenced by the Royal families? Weren’t they tired of being told what they couldn’t do based on the religion? I.E. displays or celebrations that were deemed “unorthodox”? I’m sorry, have a juicy fruit, you’re a walking contradiction. I hurt for you and I’m glad you are finall getting the attention you couldn’t get before by disagreeing with anything else you thought was “mainstream”.
to john belew,
you can display all the words and symbols you wish either on your person or in your home, but you cannot display them in public organizations such as schools
what is so hard to understand about what Rob just said? how hard is it to discern the difference between private and public land?
Jessie. This isn’t about the government favoring Christians, or Christians demanding preferential treatment (or, as you so eloquently put it, “demanding a cookie”). This is just about acknowledging that religious symbols are religious symbols, and not meaningless secular objects.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go back home and trim the Holiday Tree for my Winter Celebration, while the Jews light their Twelve Holiday Candles and the Muslims finish up their Recreational Autumn Fasting. (shh…don’t tell anyone these have ties to religion!)
Because Government forbid that we should mention anything religious about religious holidays.
Look, I’m a Christian. I get that not everyone celebrates Christmas, and I’m fine with that — it doesn’t bother me to hear about Menorahs or Kwanzaa or atheists. I accept that the Constitution allows for a variety of religious beliefs or a rejection of them altogether — and I also understand that we, as Americans, are granted to express these beliefs in whatever ways we wish to.
The tree wasn’t something chosen by our ancestors to represent Winter Holiday. It was chosen to represent Christmas. So call a Christmas Tree a Christmas Tree, because that’s the truth.
Isn’t that what the ultimate goal is — the truth? Isn’t that why we have the division between atheists and Christians, because each group searches for the truth, but found it in different places? Isn’t the truth what our justice system and our government fights to protect?
So why are we rejecting the truth now?
It isn’t about what you do at home, so your starting example satirizing the issue doesn’t pertain.
It’s about what is done in the public square, under the imprimatur of government.
In Jessica’s cookie example the mommy is the government, handing out public recognition to various religions/faiths/worldviews.
Firstly, thank you for using wonderful words like “satirizing” and “imprimatur”. Since I have the vocabulary of a ten-year-old, I had to look these up. And now I’m, like, 2% more prepared for the SATs. So SteveInCo, BLESSINGS BE UPON YOU AND ALL YOUR DESCENDANTS!
Um, so. About my satirizing example. Well, I thought it was pretty darn clever, but I guess that’s not the general consensus. *sniffle*
You’re right, though, that what is celebrated at home isn’t the business of the government. As everyone knows, home is the American’s one sanctuary from Governors and their Ridiculous Euphemisms. So my wittiness was not at all pertinent. (But at least it was still witty! Right? Um…right?)
Anyway, thank you for your reply, Steve of the InCo. I give you virtual pet bunnies in return. Please be sure to feed them virtual water and food, so they may stay virtually healthy.
(virtual!) (I really have too much free time.)
I’ve been an Atheist for over 50 years. My advice is stick to your principles. If you do that you can weather this hurricane of viciousness that is headed your way.
I see FFRF is backing you up. You might also talk to the good people at americanatheists.org.
And remember, 14% of the American people are Secularists of some stripe so you have plenty of company.
PS I put a comment on Palumbo’s fb page under this name.
Hang in there hun you have lots of support!!
to evangeline clark,
atheists have not found the truth, that is why we continue to search. christians have apparently already found the truth in the most unlikely and unbelievable source.
Sorry, Rob. I don’t think I was very clear in my rant…I guess that’s what I get for trying to write something rational at one am.
By the vague term “truth” I meant the “truth about God”. So, then:
Agnostics search for the truth.
Atheists believe in the reality that there is no god, goddess, or any deities whatsoever. This is the truth they’ve found.
Christians believe in the reality that there is a God. This is the truth they’ve found.
(Of course there’s only one right answer to The Question of God, but everyone thinks they have it.)
Thanks for replying to my comment! I’m just ridiculously happy right now, because PEOPLE ACTUALLY ARE READING WHAT I WRITE!! Gosh I love the internet.
Truth about god (or universe/life etc) is what i meant as well. Atheists continue to search for the truth, wherever that may lead. But there have been no good arguments for a particular god like the christian god and there is certainly no evidence for the existence of such a god. And since there is no evidence for a god we live our lives as if there isn’t one.
Most christians have stopped searching altogether as they believe that the most unlikely and unbelievable argument for a god is the truth.
Kitten,
The law of the land progresses with court rulings. That’s why the judicial branch is in the Constitution. The idea that the Constitution as originally written is perfect and unalterable is problematic in many ways. Here are two: The Constitution did not originally have the freedom of speech you feel so strongly about. That came three years later, in an amendment. And, to pick one glaringly obvious problem: The original Constitution allowed for slavery. I dearly hope you do not wish for a return to that ignoble “tradition”.
Acts of all three branches of government add, subtract, change and interpret the laws of the land–as set down in the original Constitution.
–
To those non-theists who feel the need to lace their comments with insults and gratuitous foul language: Don’t. You don’t represent our side well when you do that. Look at the tremendous number of horrible things written about Jessica on Facebook and elsewhere by those who disagree with us. Let’s be better than that. Furthermore, name-calling and vituperation don’t win arguments. The way for atheists to gain greater acceptance in the U.S. is to show that we can be good without a god.
–
Everyone,
When I try to put myself in the shoes of the theists who get severely bent out of shape about such a thing as taking down a religious banner in a public school, when I picture myself reacting as offensively and stubbornly as many of them do, I can only conclude that they are acting out of insecurity.
If I was secure in God’s love for me, would I care whether the banner was up or not? If I knew Jessica was going to burn in Hell forever, would I express that I “hope” it happens? That sounds like doubt to me.
If there was a banner on the wall of my school (I am a teacher, not a student) proclaiming something I strongly believe in, “morality comes from human nature, not a book” perhaps, and someone took it down, what could cause me to be so angry that I would threaten the person responsible for its removal? It’s hard for me to imagine responding that way, but the closest I can get is if I consider that somehow if the words were not on the wall, they would run the risk of being untrue. My greatest anger comes in times of self-doubt or shame. I think self-doubt is closer to being the culprit here.
If I passed by a beautiful tree every day on the way to work, then one day someone (legally) chopped it down, I think I would largely be sad, not mad. I enjoyed seeing the tree, it brightened my day. My commute will be a little less enjoyable for a while without it there. But I wouldn’t threaten the one who chopped it down. That tells me that my relationship to something like the tree is qualitatively different from the relationship of the theistic haters to the banner that was on display at Cranston West HS.
They didn’t see it as simply something beautiful. They didn’t enjoy it just because it brightened their day a little bit when they walked past it. No, it was much more personal than that. The banner was a piece of them. How could that be? It only makes sense if the banner’s existence was somehow more than an expression of their faith. In some unclear way, it must have been–in no small degree given the violent response–interwoven with their faith. Without it, do they feel less faith, or that their faith is in danger somehow? That would be a terrible blow to their world view. It’s all very strange and unfortunate that a person could have such a co-dependent relationship with a banner, words on a wall. They are only words on a wall, dear theists. Their absence shouldn’t shake your faith one iota, should it?
If I, or anyone, put up a banner saying “there is no god” (somewhere legal, such as on my garage door) and someone covered it up or took it down, that would not make me believe it any less. In fact, there is no such banner on my garage door or anywhere else that I know of, and I am extremely confident that it is nonetheless true.
Please don’t argue with me about the existence of a god; that can be fun but is beside my point here. I am trying to understand why the *words on the wall* meant so much to you. Removing a statement that I believe in with great confidence would not cause me anything like the great pain the covering up of the Cranston West banner apparently causes you. Tell me why. If it’s not doubt that drives your anger, then what is it?
–
Sabine,
Thank you so much for your eloquent defense of Jessica and her position. I am so glad that you are part of this discussion, trying to keep the haters honest.
–
Jessica,
Saving the best for last: Congratulations. I would be honored if you were my student, or my daughter. Keep up the good fight!
“I am trying to understand why the *words on the wall* meant so much to you.”
Indeed, Steve G. It’s a puzzle for the ages. Why, when someone removes something like this, or a manger scene, or a cross, from _public property_ do literally thousands of Christians come out of the woodwork to protest (as in Athens TX or that town in Pennsylvania), behaving as if you’d threatened to make Christianity a crime?
Why are they so oblivious to the distinction between “public” and “private” property and hosted speech when you try to talk to them about it?
Why do some fail to get the distinction between a neutral government and a proactively atheist one?
And indeed why is all of this SO bad some even threaten violence?
And why do so many “better” Christians not condemn them to their faces, instead coming over here to express disapproval of US for pointing out the bad behavior?
And why do some insist on writing blogs accusing Jessica of being a pawn? And telling her all this hate is “understandable”? That must take lots of courage.
SteveInCO,
Thanks for your work here on the side of reason as well. I am pleasantly surprised that anyone responded to my post, as it was really too long.
You’re right that the out-sized behavior here is “as if you’d threatened to make Christianity a crime”. That answers some of the questions, but as you note it leaves the bigger question of why they feel that way at all.
My son had a basketball coach a few years back who nearly always wore a t-shirt with “Jesus (something)” or “(something) Jesus” on it. I found it a little annoying, but I largely accepted that annoyance as my own issue, not hers. I like to think that if some other parent tried to pressure her not to wear them (unlikely around here, but let’s pretend), I would have stood on her side in the name of free speech.
I have coached my daughter’s soccer team for a number of years. I don’t have the courage to wear a t-shirt to practice saying “atheist (anything)”. I like to think that my team parents, who are a great group and most of whom have been with me for years, would just shrug or keep their own possible annoyance to theirselves. (Some of them know I don’t believe in a god, but some may not. I don’t walk around proclaiming it, but I don’t hide it if the subject comes up.) But I’m scared to find out that I’m wrong. So, here is the supposed “War on Christianity” is a soldier who’s afraid to even put on the uniform. Some war.
But back to the real question again. What is it really that makes many people feel so threatened when an illegal expression of their religion is removed from the public sphere?
What if *all* Christian symbols (public or private), for whatever reason, were to be taken down, etc.? No crosses on churches, no Jesus billboards, no “Jesus fish” on people’s cars, etc. How many Christians would feel their connection to God less strongly? (And for goodness’ sake, why?) If you can even imagine this for a moment, Christians, welcome to our world. I feel as strongly as I think I can that there is no god and I don’t have any symbols of atheism to support me all around my community, save the very-infrequent “Darwin fish” on someone’s car.
Okay, this post is going on too long again. Let me just thank you again, SteveInCO, for your part in this conversation. The funny thing about reason is that it sounds so darn…reasonable.
I truly admire your courage, Jessica. I have daughters close to your age, and they face similar discrimination from family members, friends, and school alike. It’s not always easy to be the atheist kid, and you’re facing a bigger fight than most adults would even be willing to take on.
Jon from Canada
Even though i know there is NO god,i also know that you’re a piece of shit whore.Imposing your will on others is loosebutthole.
Why don’t you go to China?They like commie whores like you.Have fun being a lesbian sicko,you nigger lover.
Haha Troll
Well, well. Erudite commentary at its finest.
Oh, forgot to mention.
This rude jerk isn’t a REAL atheist….
I’ll grant you rude commentators like the one here aren’t atheists if in turn you will accept rude commentators by definition cannot be Christians!
He is not an atheist because he believes in god. The Christians who make rude comments are Christians because they believe in Jesus Christ.
If someone reads the bible and interprets it in a completely different manner than you did, this does not make them wrong and you right. They could be right and you wrong, or both could be wrong.
If there are over a billion interpretations of the same book, how can you know you are correct? Knowing that the bible has not reached everyone, and can be interpreted in violently different ways, wouldn’t this reveal the incompetence of a god to use text to reveal a clear message to everyone?
Rob – The rude comments prove the commentator is not living out clear biblical teaching:
“But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity”.
“Always be prepared to make a defence to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; ”
This doesn’t involve nuances about the Greek word for predestination or something, it’s pretty basic stuff. The plain sense doesn’t need much interpreting, if any.
The examples Jessica quotes clearly don’t match the quotes above, they are from ‘unbelievers’.
Atheists may not like that, and will resist me claiming that because it puts the spite and name-calling in their camp. But given the premise of atheism, why not? Why not vent your spleen against Christianity, you won’t ever have to give an account for it, ‘not bearing false witness’ is no more than a human opinion and as such can be ignored.
So you wasted all that space and didn’t once come close to answering my questions….
I guess you just violated the “Always be prepared to make a defence to any one who calls you to account”.
Please explain what you think the premise of Atheism is?
“The rude comments prove the commentator is not living out clear biblical teaching”
Clearly not, the bible teaches to kill non-believers, not insult them.
Obvious troll is obvious lol
We are thoughtful creatures but first and unavoidably we are emotional creatures and logic can be relied on to fail in that broad land, like a world without gravity, and there is no up or down.
Our emotions are linked to our moral behavior, our moral thoughts… I think Jonathon Haidt (see him on TED) has one of the most definitive and accessible descriptions of elemental morality and how liberals, conservative, orthodox… etc have, each in common, a set of morals with relevant strengths… If you ascribe a set of “conservative morals” to a group, you may in fact predict their behavior quite well. Moreover, you will also know that these are not thoughts, but emotions, beliefs, tied to joy and disgust, revulsion, fear… the words issued from that state merely describe the upset and attribute the just cause of the upset to some abhorrent behavior in you, in me, in whomever.
To find many more arguments supporting the courageous position taken by Jessica Ahlquist visit HereticsHandbook on the internet.
Jessica, I admire you for being so brave. What you are doing takes such an incredible amount of courage! Those nutters who are sending you death threats are the truly evil people, not you.
I hate it how those extreme Christians cannot leave other people alone about their religion. I believe more people should learn to keep their religion private. Everyone has a right to believe in whatever they want to believe in but they shouldn’t be allowed to exclude others like you. I’m beyond sick of being annoyed about other people’s religions. I have religious views as well (minority religion) but I would never dream of annoying other people about my religious views. If only more of those religious extremists could realise that people don’t want to hear about their relgious views, and aren’t going to convert anyway!
This world needs more people like you!
Stay brave, and all the best,
Kat
You’ll notice that the christians commenting on this website, are the nastiest, most profoundly rude example of why religion is obsolete. If religion truly gave people peace, religious people wouldn’t war with non- believers. If having faith, truly makes you people better, why do es all of world history disagree with your holier than thou mental-masturbation? Look around people! You’re all lambasting a 16 year-old girl! I ask you now, is that what your Jesus would be doing? If you want secular society to continue tolerating you, I suggest you stop acting like children. Consider acting like the semi- maladjusted “people” you really are. Secular mentality is not just a passing fad. We are in a new age of logic and reason. Don’t like it? Too bad! I hope my daughter has the strength to stand up for her beliefs, when she is older.
I wouldn’t be too quick on saying that religion is growing obsolete. A good example of coming to the wrong conclusion about it is saying that Estonia is become an atheistic nation, where in reality a lot of Estonians are returning to their native cultural faith. Faith is evolving, just like everything else evolves. But I digress, everything else you say is right, it certainly shows the failing of conservative fundamentalist faith as they feel threatened by a young woman. Then again, everything that doesn’t agree with them they feel threatened by. Makes me wonder if they think indigestion is their stomach turning against them foir Satan?
Dear Jessica,
I have heard about your story all the way from California. You’d be surprised to hear that not all parts of California are progressive.
I grew up in Big Bear Lake, a small mountain community East of Los Angeles. Over 50% of Big Bear’s population is Evangelical Christian.
At a very early age I experienced the kind of hatred you are currently experiencing. In the 5th grade, after giving a presentation about Hannukah to my class with my mother, a little girl came up to me at recess and told me “My daddy says you’re going to hell.”
Our small Jewish community in Big Bear struggled with out school board, much like you are struggling with yours. A Jewish student was denied recognition for perfect attendance because she took time away from school for Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana. The ACLU came to visit us and the school board several times, but the isolated school district and the obdurate school board always seemed to have the upper hand.
When I was 13 I moved to a similar small mountain community outside of Lake Tahoe named Placerville. The Evangelical movement and white supremacist movement were also very strong and active in this community.
It was around age 15 that I reached the age of enlightenment and came out to my friends and family as an Atheist.
The El Dorado County Office of Education did have some forward thinking progressives in it, but unfortunately the small town small mind mentality permeated into the school boards across the county.
My freshman year I quit the football team because of mandatory prayers that took place before and after practice.
I remember having to endure an assembly where a group of Christian body builders ripped phonebooks in half in the name of Jesus Christ.
A church from a neighboring town regularly parked their “Truth Trucks” across the street from our High School and engaged underage students in discussions about the sin of homosexuality and abortion.
http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/gay-ole-time-in/content?oid=33987
I want you to know that you are not alone. Often the loudest voices are the ones with the most hate. You have many admirers across the country and across the world.
Stay strong. You are doing something our secular Founding Fathers would be proud of.
The sad part about this whole thing (jessica) is you seem to have no understanding when it comes to what it means to deal with handling an offense/being offended. You also seem to adore attention and want everyone to know your business.
It might be a good idea for you to simply stop speaking and resort to learning how to listen; rather than looking back and wishing you had not been so outspoken…
Good luck to you, Jessica. I (truly) hope you find the kind of peace that will depress your intellectual knowledge to the point where you will better understand how it feels to be (emotionally) supported…
You know, thcott, this is more passive aggressive bullcrap. You are playing the kind stranger giving helpful advice, but you are really insulting Jessica and telling her to get back in (what you conceive to be) her place. “Children should be seen and not heard” might be the best summarization of the attitude that comes through this.
I don’t know why some people seem to assume Jessica is doing this for attention, or that she is a pawn of evil adult atheists. Maybe she saw something, decided it was wrong, and tried to correct it. Usually people call this “idealism” even when they think it’s misguided.
To the best of my knowledge (based on a video of her speaking last weekend) Jessica is _not_ “looking back and wishing [she] had not been so outspoken” but rather still quite deservedly proud of having done the right thing–while being appalled at the way her peers and neighbors have behaved in response. She has learned a lesson all right–and that is that even “typical” religious folks like the ones next door can be astoundingly intolerant.
And you are hoping she becomes _less_ knowledgeable in your last paragraph, and learn to like being emotionally dependent on others? WTF!! What, would a lobotomy satisfy you? This is a _reversal_ of the process of growing up and becoming independent. Why would you want the people around you to be _less_ capable of dealing with the world on their own? I for one hope she continues down this path and continues kicking asses that need kicking. I look forward to seeing what she is like–and what she can do–as an independent adult.
I am not a religious man by any stretch of the imagination. If I am not being forced to recite or otherwise partake in any religious ceremony, then it is not a bother to me. It does not pain me to see others doing what they feel they must. By forcing your lack of faith on others, you are no less a bigot than the ones you protest.
“Forcing your lack of faith on others”
that would include replacing the prayer banner with “Don’t believe in god, the grown ups made it up, like they did santa and jesus”
SteveINCO, you are exactly right in some of what you say. She’s a 16 year old with very little wisdom who is getting caught up in a mess that is far bigger than she can handle. She is dangerously close to becoming fodder for the media. She is basing her decisions on how she “feels” abou this rather than logically thinking through this. She has trusted lawyers (who do not have her best interest), and has no way to grasp the effects of the attention she is garnering–> and the ramificaitons of it.
Not sure what you meant by “passive-agressive” because common sense would say learn through experiences before making (emotional-based) decisions.
If you look at her recent posts, SteveINCO, they are becoming more and more finger pointing and less kind and humble.
Steve, children could learn alot by simply waiting for the time where it’s very easy to be a spokesperson rather than to swim in a very deep ocean without a lifeguard to assist them…..
A donkey knows its a donkey, but humans often act like jackasses….
I’m a 38 year-old attorney in New York. I’ve been an atheist for as long as I can remember, probably since I was 10 or 11. I read of your story, and particularly your legal victory, for the first time today, and I found it such a compelling set of circumstances that I needed to reach out and tell you…
You are absolutely and profoundly wrong on this issue.
Don’t misunderstand me – as an atheist, and a constitutional scholar, I totally understand where you are coming from on this, and sympathize to a very large extent. And I don’t doubt that it took an immense amount of courage to do what you did. But, if atheism may be deemed a “cause” in any way, shape or form, then I must tell you that you have set that cause so far back that I would not be surprised to hear that any legal precedent formed does significantly more harm than good.
Ideas spread, not by force, but by reason, logic and persuasion. You took a situation in which you perceived indoctrination in the form of what was, frankly, a non-intrusive display of a fairly benign prayer – a prayer that had very little practical effect other than to make other believers feel good. Your response, in the form of legal force, was the ideological equivalent of using tear gas on a picketer, or whipping someone for spanking her child. The cure was far more intrusive and harsh than whatever you perceived to be the illness.
Did you ever consider trying to win with ideas instead of legal force? Did you try to write a column in your school paper before running to the courthouse? Did you try to get the school to post a secular rejoinder on the same wall that the prayer was posted, so that other atheists did not feel like they “belonged”?
You’ve done no good here. All of the theists who previously thought their beliefs were under attack are even more sure of it now, and you can be sure that they will instill the same fear into their children, whom they are already attempting to indoctrinate into their religion. And fear is a far greater influence on one’s beliefs than force. Look at the Middle East if that’s not already clear enough.
There are an infinite number of ways you can go out there and win people over in ways that don’t involve state intervention. If you want inspiration as to how to be intellectually aggressive rather than legally aggressive , then read Dawkins or Hitchens.
Haha. What an awesome post. This guys just shut you and your crazy ideas down.
“Did you ever consider trying to win with ideas instead of legal force? Did you try to write a column in your school paper before running to the courthouse? Did you try to get the school to post a secular rejoinder on the same wall that the prayer was posted, so that other atheists did not feel like they “belonged”? ”
Yes, she tried for months to convince a committee that the banner was illegal. She started a facebook page outlining the issues and what it should be removed.
Placing a secular banner does not just make atheists belong, it is inclusive of everybody. Which still leaves a christian banner hanging up there, and is not inclusive of atheists, muslims, jews, hindus, and every faith or lack thereof groups in the world.
Dustin, this makes charlies post not awesome and he didn’t come close to shutting anyone’s ideas down.
And if it was a muslim sign up there, then I’m sure Jessica would have a greater deal of support from the christian community, funny thing that.
Do what you’d like. Just make sure your ass acts the same way when Muslims are pushing their religion on yo and your school, Let’s see how much of a dedicated atheist you are then.
Are you serious? Do you really think atheists are closet Muslims? Hilarious! It’s like you’re the parody of a parody.
Jessica,
I don’t get it.
If you were a vegetarian, you wouldn’t seek to ban meat from the school cafeteria, so why do you want to banish a prayer that reflects the beliefs of the vast majority of the students just because you think you are an atheist?
Anyway, what’s an atheist? An atheist is someone who thinks God doesn’t believe in him or her.
Wake up!
You were created by God and are his daughter.
Check out the teachings of Lee Strobel, a former atheist, and the film Expelled on youtube. They will change your life and let you see that God really does love you.
Ah the beauty of this forum is if you get thumped on one tab you can just repeat the same inane attack on the other and hope no one notices.
I noticed.
What I find interesting about the whole holiday tree thing is that the word holiday comes from “holy-day” which still makes a reference to religion regardless. So why do SOME Christians get offended because Chaffee changed the name of the tree over??
Hi Jessica! Here’s wholehearted support from the West Coast, Puget Sound. Somehow I hope this post actually reaches you. I’ll keep my message brief, in hopes we will someday communicate more thoroughly. You are an amazing person. To have such strength and wisdom at your age is not only a tribute to your character, but to your parents for creating the environment in which you could grow. I read you are a self-proclaimed geek, and I assume that means some sort of technology, but I hope you haven’t ruled out law school. You are bright, and quite obviously capable of a good fight… I would love to mentor you, if you choose, and believe our company might even be able to offer a scholarship, in addition to paid work. Keep it in mind… you never know what path life takes you down. Keep up the good work and a big “You Go Girl!”
There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages. Richard Lederer
It’s a Christmas tree. There’s no point in masking what that is through semantics. All this does is take distract people from real issues regarding atheism that need to be addressed in this country. To quote Dawkins:
“All that ‘Happy Holiday Season’ stuff, with ‘holiday’ cards and ‘holiday’ presents,” is a tiresome import from the United States, where it has long been fostered more by rival religions than atheists,”
The difference between saying “Happy Holidays” and “Merry Christmas” is a broadening of cultural awareness and sensitivity. It isn’t politically correct to say “A Holiday Tree,” because there isn’t such a thing as a Holiday Tree, and there is no frame of reference for any other religion or holiday that’s occurring using a tree as a symbol. Anyone who says “Holiday Tree” is still referring to Christmas, because that’s the implication, which should be just as offensive to someone who is offended by seeing a Christmas tree anyway.
Attack the problem from the right perspective, Jessica. Attack it from the idea that A: There shouldn’t be a tree at all (which is silly), or B: The bigger and more important argument: That Christmas is a tradition that has been separated from its religious implications for many many years, and it isn’t a big deal as say…teaching creationism alongside evolution in a science class.
Fight THAT fight.
Exactly
Let’s just peel the religiousness off of a perfectly good holiday.
Rob, I know you have a great name and all but ‘dammit I was here first!’ lol
As far as fighting creationism in school, unfortunately that is a huge battle as it has to take place in every state, which for something like that should be federal.
I think the ‘holiday tree’ is mainly for people who celebrate christmas but without the christ bit. There are people who really enjoy celebrating with family and friends, even the tree and gift giving but do not want it referenced to some fictional guy and his birthday. It just makes it inclusive so that more people will celebrate.
Also they might be changing the name a little prematurely, preparing for when christianity dies out.
“but do not want it referenced to some fictional guy and his birthday”.?!?
Come up with your own holiday then and call it Festivus or something. Why are you trying to take over another religions holiday just because you don’t believe in it and then mock us? That is cruel. (Not you per se but the you that feels this way) We are not all bashing Jessica. I feel like this is setting us back years.
Next thing The holiday tree is going to be on the back of the bus.
But really, I don’t call Buddha “some fictional guy”. It’s our holiday as Hanuka is a Jewish holiday and so on. Should the menorah be changed too?
What part of what I said was mocking you, or christians?
There is absolutely no evidence that jesus was an actual historical figure, which is why he is a fictional character. The basic story of jesus has been plagiarized from earlier myths, like Horus and Mithra. His birthday was ‘chosen’ by the church 400 years later, as no one actual knew when it was or whether it even happened.
I’m not trying to take over your holiday, just bring it slightly closer to reality.
For interest’s sake, not all ‘Christians’ are pro-Christmas trees and what not. Many prefer to not celebrate it at all, seeing that it is not a festival commanded by God and a pagan festival used for the sake of evangelisation through Christmas themes – in which case it is helpful. But to call it a holiday tree is super pansy. Why not rather call it by one of its original names then? I guess the governor dude would also be too afraid to do that. America is a strange country – in South Africa where I’m from everyone is fine with calling it a Christmas tree, regardless of what they believe. Is it so painful to American atheists to hear the word Christmas tree? Do they torture atheists in America or something?
America is a strange country indeed! The political correctness in this country is so over the top, to the point that it detracts from its intended goal which is to create an atmosphere of tolerance between people, beliefs, and groups who are different. That’s the irony of this entire thing.
I do want to point out one thing in your post, however. It’s not atheists who care if it’s called a Christmas tree. The people who care are usually of a faith other than Christianity, and they feel that their beliefs aren’t being represented because there is a much heavier population of Christians/ Catholics to say Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc.
Rob…
‘but do not want it referenced to some fictional guy and his birthday.’
You don’t seem to be too big on your history?
On what basis do you discard or accept historical figures as real or fictional?
Accepted? apart from the bible itself there is no external reference to him, or anyone fitting his description in that time.
Not to mention that the story of jesus is obviously copied from the egyptian god Horus, who was the son of a god, born to a virgin, walked on water, and also had 12 disciples, crucified and raised 3 days later. And there aren’t many, if any, reputable historians that would agree he was an actual historical figure.
Or maybe it was Apollonius of Tyana.
Hun, I’m an atheist, and I believe this whole business of calling it a “holiday tree” is total crap. Because it isn’t a holiday tree: it’s a Christmas tree. It is a part of Christmas. And while some people still treat it as a religious holiday, it is for most a secular holiday in which people give one another presents to show their love. That’s what Christmas means to me. There’s a very good reason the governor shouldn’t call it a “holiday” tree: because he sounds like a jackass. It’s a Christmas tree. It has always been a Christmas tree. To call it anything else is to imply that we’re all whiny little children who can’t stand the mention of anything that is or used to be religious. There’s separation of church and state, and then there’s just nonsense.
Political correctness has real importance. Changing the words we use and the way we talk about and think about things fosters better relations among people. But there is a reason some people get tired of it: because certain people don’t know how to use it properly. They go so far out of their way not to offend people that their efforts actually become offensive. They censor things that aren’t offensive, and so give offense.
I’m sorry the more time I am on here the more I am becoming offended. Christmas is about Christs birth. Why would it need to be changed to be politacally correct?? It’s a Christian holiday that non Christians need not celebrate if they are against it. Why is this hard to understand? I don’t ask that other religions change their holiday’s to suit me! Please stop this ridiculousness. CHRISTmas. Jesus Christs birthday celebration. Do you always celebrate the birth of people you don’t believe in? DO NOT steal my Saviors holiday.
Your religion stole the holiday from the pagans in the first place.
Oh and how about don’t put up a tree at all? Separation of Church and State, it’s a Christmas tree why is it in there at all? Why would anyone who does not want religion in the government place a tree in their lobby?!?! Put Santa Claus or an elf in there.
As an atheist, I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one. It’s a Christmas tree. Christmas is, in practice, a largely secular, commercialized holiday. Name aside, it’s not Christian unless it’s got a little baby Jesus on it. This is as stupid as saying that the government can’t say January because of Janus-worship, or most of the days of the week because it would be offensive to anyone who doesn’t venerate Thor, Frigg, Odin, Tyr, or Cronus.
The problem isn’t that they called it a Christmas tree, the problem is that they didn’t and Christians got all butthurt because of it
Dear Jessica,
I am Christian, period. I do not have hatred towards you or anyone else that is not religious, nor christian. I am not writing you because I am angered by your opinion, or your beliefs or anyone else’s. I have love in my heart and god gives me love to share with everyone. I do however feel that your cookie rant is very immature, and prejudice. I am sorry that people can not discuss their feelings with you in a non-vulgar way, please don’t assume though that it is ok to disrespect a religion that you most certainly do not understand. By the way, why did you have to remove a prayer that has been pinned up in a school that was written by a prior student? why not just post something regarding your own beliefs, I thought the first amendment to the Constitution was Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM religion……just a thought. Best wishes!
Sincerley,
Brittany
You cannot be free to believe one creed unless you are free not to believe other creeds, in other words, unless you are free FROM them being imposed upon you by government.
The first amendment was not just intended to keep government out of religion, it was intended to keep religion out of government. Something you would appreciate if you considered what it would be like if some religion you do not accept, were using the government to proselytize to you. I imagine you would be irate if you walked into a public school and saw Islamic or even outright atheist pronouncements on such banners.
Imagining that it’s somehow OK when Christians do it, that it’s only exercising freedom OF religion (if it happens to be Christian) is upholding a blatant double standard.
I’ll emphasize that you, as an individual, or your church, or your private business, have all the right in the world to promote your religion. It’s not OK to use the government to do so.
(I find it interesting that as soon as someone tries to get the government to be _neutral_ on these issues (neutral, NOT “pro atheist” somehow), many Christians scream bloody murder, as if they were being threatened with a ban on their religion. Ludicrous. We are just asking the government not to take sides. But why feel so threatened by a government that doesn’t take sides?)
I’m an atheist, too. I live in Poland and I’m fifteen.
Jessica, I agree with you at all. I don’t understand why religious symbols may be in public places. I think it’s unfair. I know a lot of atheists and nobody may break our law. Let’s show it believers.
A “Christmas” tree is for Christmas – it’s not a “Holiday” tree – because it’s not a symbol of Hanukkah or Kwanzaa or New Year’s or President’s Day or Independence Day or any other Holiday. Why couldn’t RI have a Christmas tree, along with a Menorah and a Kinara (and any other holidays the townfolk wanted)? Would athiests be opposed to that, too?
I don’t think the Christians are being “pissy” – I didn’t hear them saying that there could ONLY be a Christmas tree there. The only “pissiness” I heard was from you – complaining because the Christians had a valid point.
I get that you claim your only defending your “rights” but when you write like this, you sound like a typical teenager that wants attention.
You posted under “Christian Love” about the prayer saying “OUR” – are you truly going to sue the government to change all of the money that has In God WE Trust on it? Where does this insanity end? I love America, but I’m embarrassed that we have become the frivolous lawsuit capital of the world.
I honestly am trying to understand your point of view. But, NOBODY in your school was forcing you to say or even read the prayer. Where in the prayer did it even mention CHRIST? Because I didn’t see him mentioned in the prayer? So, why are you always attacking only CHRISTIANS? Other religions believe in God. Are the Muslims in your school allowed to use their prayer mats & face Mecca to pray every day? Does it offend you when they do?
It’s separation of CHURCH and State – not separation of RELIGION and state! There’s a BIG difference, and you are VERY blind to it!
I wish you all the best in life, but I hope you aren’t so closed-minded for the rest of it.
People are fighting to get ‘in god we trust’ taken off the money, since it was only put there in 1957 and doesn’t really uphold the ideals of the founding fathers or America today.
Yes and no.
The first use of In God We Trust (IGWT) was on the 1864 (not a typo) two cent piece (also not a typo). The motto started showing up on other denominations. In 1907, the twenty and ten dollar gold pieces (which got the motto in 1866) were redesigned, and IGWT was left _off_ the new designs at the request of Theodore Roosevelt, who considered putting the word “God” on a coin to be blasphemous. There was a huge uproar and the motto was restored by act of congress in 1908. The buffalo or indian head nickel (1913-1938) was the last US coin not to bear the motto.
What happened in 1957 is that IGWT was added to the paper money.
It should never have been put on in the first place.
Yeah exactly, for 200 odd years it wasn’t on the paper money, they should have left it off. At least they don’t have a picture of jesus on it, god can potentially mean anything.
Not to be totally picky but you said “money” originally, not “paper money”… so I thought I’d tell the whole story.
I’ve heard people say “currency”, thinking that they are talking about paper money by doing so, but that term is not in fact a synonym for paper money; it also means coins.
In any case, it is very irksome to have someone whip a dollar bill out of their wallet and try to use it on me as evidence that this nation was founded on Christianity. Or my other “favorite” line, “you won’t want that money because it says “In God We Trust” on it.” (OK, charge up a cash card then.)
It seems unreasonable to be upset that he’s calling it a Holiday tree. It would seem far sillier to put a nativity/ manger display and then call it a “holiday baby”. If that happened, at least the display would actually be something important to the true meaning of the Christian holiday. But no… it’s a tree. It’s a decoration that has no Christian-Christmas backstory whatsoever.
These aren’t reasonable people. By definition.
There’s a new ‘call to arms’ if we are to defend the First Amendment and the ‘Separation of Church and State’. I hope you are all serious about you support of these crucial concepts and speak up. I especially hope Jessica will speak up as she has a public voice right now.
For more information… http://wp.me/2dtBq
I agree about the banner thing but this is going too far. Down this path Menorah candles would have to be re-named ‘Holiday candles’ if mentioned on T.V. lest a non-jewish person sees it and gets offended. How can someone have freedom of religion when facets of that religion based in deep tradition have to be re-named to suit a more diverse world? Can’t they at least keep a freaking name?! That would be the same as a restaurant only allowing its patrons to refer to their meals as “food” so the person who ordered spagetti doesn’t get offended when they hear someone saying how much they likes their burger.
This girl is a condescending idiot who wants attention.
I have two questions for “know-it-all” Jessica.
When you buy and display your “holiday tree” and someone asks you what holiday you “holiday tree” represents, what will you say?!?
Do you actually know why this country was founded, why the pilgrims came here?
You are simply a loser who wants attention. She has the brain function of a mold spore.
I shoudn’t have wasted MY time commenting on this half-wit! That’s 3 minutes that I’ll never get back.
Yet another claim that she’s a loser who wants attention.
Way to not even address the issue and just insult someone who (I would guess) is a hell of a lot smarter than you are.
Thanks Jessica Ahlquist,
I’ll forever know you as the bitch baby that couldn’t take it and went to court because her father is like a little girl. I’m sorry, I can’t help it. I’m a little bitch baby for not being able to accept how miniscule your being is. Regardless of wha changes you make in law, you’re not mking the proper changes as a human being if you’re living like this and then saying “congratulations to us all.” Good luck, hopefully you don’t across something else you don’t like in the rest of your life.
Our Heavenly Father.
Grant us each day the desire to do our best.
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically.
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers.
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others.
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win.
Teach us the value of true friendship.
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen.
Good luck, bitch baby
Um, no laws were changed, the law was already there and the school was in violation of that law. By refusing to remove an illegal banner, the school committee forced it to go to court.
Hey, make a T-shirt of if and make a ton of bucks selling it to students at West Cranston High. Make it more prominent than it ever was as a banner.
Oh, you’d have to do the work then, and you’d have to invest your own money instead of getting taxpayers to carry the water? AND it wouldn’t be nearly as cool because the authorities are no longer endorsing your religion?
Well, too bad.
PS: Is your god that wimpy that he absolutely needs the help of a local school to get his message out?
Or perhaps the real fear is that if people had to spend their own money and their own public backing (by wearing a T-shirt they endorse it _and all of its good sportsmanship content_) to flaunt the prayer, few would think it’s worth the trouble?
You are in our prayers.
Hi Jessica
I respect your courage in maintaining comments. I appreciate being able to put my two cents in. I haven’t read the comments, but I hope you haven’t been harassed or called names. This should be a debate and I appreciate the chance to voice my opinion.
I hope that sometime in the future that you see this from another point of view.
In short, tolerance is a two way street. Leftists scream the loudest demanding their views be tolerated. No matter how offensive or disgusting to the overwhelming majority some of their antics may be, we as a society are constantly being bashed over the head with an insistence that, above all, we must be tolerant.
Gay pride parades on public property with extreme costumes designed to disgust and outrage most people? Our public schools as breeding grounds for political indoctrination such as preschool sex ed or gay ed? We are told that we must tolerate those views or we are narrow minded bigots.
In other words, leftists demand tolerance, but as I’ve learned they are as capable of being intolerant and hatefilled as anyone. Don’t kid yourself. Your INTOLERANCE brought you to the place you are today.
You can’t live and let live. What did that sign really hurt? In the greater scheme of things, what was it hurting you to just look at it with bemusement and just move on with your life?
Your intolerance of those who are different than you was simply too much for you to take. You HAD to make them conform to you. You think you did a great thing, but what you have done is demonstrate for all to see that you are as capable of being intolerant as any of the people you most vehemently disagree with.
Never forget. If you want tolerance, you must BE tolerant. You have many years to learn this lesson, but right now I don’t think you fully understand what I am saying.
Good luck to you.
One more thing: Don’t think I couldn’t give you several examples of how leftists are violating the Constitution of the United States in the same way you are arguing that a violation was occurring. The difference is, leftists call me INTOLERANT, an ignorant redneck or even racist when I want those provisions of the constitution enforced.
Just so you know Jessica. If we are going to enforce the constitution, then we need to enforce the constitution. Not just those parts that leftists hold dear.
No where does that document identify the right to an abortion. I am not against abortion per se, but let’s be fair. Leftists don’t have any problem finding a right to an abortion even though it is never mentioned. But they will jump through hoops trying to twist the meaning of the Second Amendment.
I hope you will wake up and see that leftists are as capable of extreme intolerance as anyone else and that they don’t have respect for the whole constitution. Just some of it. Those parts they agree with. The other parts that they disagree with, well, it’s perfectly fine to violate those.
I fail to see intolerance in Ms. Ahlquist’s actions and words. I certainly do see intolerance in those who feel threatened by her.
They call for her physical assault and worse, they insult, they belittle. They show their ignorance of the laws and traditions they claim to respect. In doing so they show their fearfulness, the shallowness of their supposed faith and the pettiness of their concerns.
Jessica Ahlquist is their superior in patriotism and citizenship, in her defense of not just her rights but their rights. They and you really need to grasp this.
Huh, I was actually thought Jessica was reasonable until I read that blissfully ignorant post. The reason Christians are upset is because a staple of their religion is being renamed to something else. The whole thing would be a nonissue if they just didn’t put up the tree. Instead, they try to redefine what the Christmas tree is. That’s a bad idea if you don’t want to piss people off. To be clear though, the Christians are right in the sense that the tree shouldn’t be renamed, however they are wrong if they believe that the tree should be there at all.
The rant Jessica just went on was the definition of ignorance. Instead of recognizing why they would be upset that a very important symbol of their religion was being redefined she goes on a rant about how Christians only want their way. In the process she ostracizes any Christians who may have agreed with her and anyone who actually recognizes that changing someone’s religion is wrong. The politically correct thing to do would be to have no religious symbols in government areas, not take a religious symbol and redefine it. It is very disappointing to see that no one recognizes why Christians might be offended. Seriously, why not just no religious symbols at all? Would that have been so hard?
Even though the tree and most other Christmas customs, even the details of the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus, were stolen from earlier, pagan religions. How hypocritical.
Pagan rituals and symbols were stolen by more religions than just Christianity. Besides, for the Christians of today, they were brought up and taught about the Christmas tree. It has been a part of their entire life. Perhaps it was stolen 700 years ago but that does not mean they can’t get angry when it is taken from them. Maybe if they stole the symbol in their lifetime you could call them hypocrites for this whole controversy, however since they had nothing to do with it I really don’t see how they’re to blame.
I wanted to comment about your Christmas Tree Controversy. Your cookie example is good, but somewhat flawed. Actually a better analogy would be that everyone except the atheists have their own bag of cookies. The Christians have Chocolate Chip, others have Mint, yet others have lemon, etc, etc. However atheists have none. The Christians (and others) are all glad to share their cookies, and offer them to the atheists, but the atheists hate cookies, and so are offended that everyone else has them and says no one else is allowed to eat them in front of them. In the example of the Christmas tree, it’s like taking the Christians cookie, and trying to make everyone else mix in their different kinds of cookies, and telling everyone they should be happy with this new mess of a cookie that no one likes and satisfies no one. Funny thing is, even the atheists still aren’t happy, because there’s still a cookie!
P
A couple other things, you say that you’re pretty sure that Christians are probably the ones that started the whole this ridiculous feud. No, that would be the Governor, who decided to call it a Holiday Tree. Is a Manora Candle suppose to be called a holiday candle too??
See, the problem with what you’re saying is that Rhode Island which is based on religious freedom, you are actually proposing intolerance or the elimination of religion. Two very different things.
And finally, No, it’s not a “Holiday Tree”, it’s a Christmas Tree. You want to celebrate the “Holidays”, come up with new traditions, new symbols, new holidays. Then you can call them whatever you like.
Merry Christmas!
Where do I begin?
You clearly missed the point of the analogy.
In Jessica’s analogy the cookie is the government’s financing and imprimatur. The point she is making is that many Christians scream like stuck pigs when you ask the government to stop using its resources to propagandize for their particular religion. You’d think from all the howling that she is trying to ban Christianity; she is not. She just doesn’t want the government to help Christians push Christianity.
In yours it appears to be the conceptual contents of people’s religious faith, and you seem to think that atheists are complaining because they don’t have any. Far from it; we are quite happy we don’t have any.
You ignore totally the real issue here, which was the use of government to endorse religion.
What you are really advocating is Freedom FROM Religion (Atheism) as opposed to Freedom OF Religion. Two very different things.
You are trying to force your own World View (atheism/secularism) on everyone else by your own intolerance of anything religious.
Indeed we advocate freedom from religion. But that’s not synonymous with atheism.
Freedom From Religion simply means other people are not permitted to force their religion upon you. Muslims are not free to force Islam upon you. Jews are not free to force Judaism upon you. Atheists are not free to force atheism on you. And Christians are not free to force Christianity on you. Well, you may think the last is no biggie, but how many different versions of Christianity are there? Are you Catholic? If so, would you want Pentecostalism forced on you? Are you Protestant? If so, would you want some other branch of Protestantism, much less Catholicism or even Mormonism forced on you? Would you want the government to even provide Catholic churches free resources to propagandize for Catholicism?
Freedom from religion is NOT having the government propagandize for atheism. It is having the government refuse to be used as a tool by ANY religious conviction, including yours, whatever it is. The government should be neutral. Neutral is not atheist. The lack of a religious slogan on a government building is not atheism, it is neutrality. If some atheist slogan were on the government building, that WOULD be the government endorsing atheism, but that’s not what is being advocated here.
We haven’t had enough back and forth in these comments for me to get a feel for whether you can see the distinction between “lack of a religious message” and “an outright anti-religious message” or not. But that’s very much an important distinction if you want to understand the difference between a _secular_ government and an _atheist_ one.
So SteveInCo, you do not see why Christians would be insulted by the redefinition of one of their symbols? The only politically correct way to handle religious symbols at the holidays would be to not use them. It isn’t like the governor decided to be fair to all religions. He decided to devalue Christianity by changing a staple of their religion. The tree should not be there. If the tree was not there the whole thing would have been a significantly lesser issue.
I agree the tree should not have been there in the first place. I’ll go so far as to agree with the next comment (by charvak) that this was a bad compromise. The governor’s intent may have been to try to be “inclusive” but I think your description of how it came across is a good one. This response wasn’t the best one he could have picked.
(You’ll notice my comments on this particular thread have been over the separation of church and state issue in general, not specifically over the tree–but most of the comments I have been responding to–including this second comment of Harry’s–are in the same vein.)
(And also, I think complaining about “Happy Holidays” is overblown; I’ve always taken it as being shorthand for “Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year”–two holidays. Apparently others think it’s an attempt to pull in Hannukah, Kwanzaa, etc. and if so, so what?)
The problem is, once the pro-Christian imbalance is established, a hue and cry goes up from some Christians (unable to understand the difference between neutrality and atheism) when you try to redress that imbalance.
Just for instance, the pledge of allegiance, for 60 years, did not contain the words “under God” and it didn’t really seem to disrupt the fabric of the universe, or do the United States any real harm that it wasn’t there–we did survive that benighted period after all, and with plenty of Christians to boot! Once the words got added in the 1950s, any attempt to remove them now became (in the eyes of many) an attack on the very fabric of American society, and an attempt to impose atheism on the US. Hmmm… were we in a state of atheist imposition before the 1950s? If not, why is returning to the way we were back then somehow an example of atheist tyranny?
I agree with the premise of the post, but not with the conclusion. You can’t let them put up a Christmas tree and then tell them what it is to be called. In your cookie analogy, it would be like giving them the last cookie, but telling them not to eat it. You are within your rights to refuse the use of public property for religious use- tell them to take their tree to their church. This phenomenon of ill thought of compromises is a true American tradition: for example, ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ was a compromise that was reached to ‘allow’ gays to serve in the military. They either have the same rights as the others, or they don’t. Whats the point of saying, ‘I’ll let you serve as long as you don’t tell me you are gay’, without imposing the same condition on the heterosexuals?
Your logic doesn’t stand. You cannot stand on ppl’s false argument to prove that you are right. What you are doing is oppressing religious freedom. That banner really doesn’t do anything to you but somehow may save some people. You don’t have a banner to hang on doesn’t mean others who have a banner not to hang on. We all have our own agenda and you plunder and kill others. What a shame!
Just wanted to express support & solidarity, you are an inspiration. Keep up the good work & stay healthy, happy & safe.
I wish I had been as smart and well spoken as you are when I was your age. YOU are amazing. Thank you!
Jessica, I don;t agree with your thoughts, but kudos to your victory. btw, you got a great body.
Hey Jessica,
I’m sure you’ve gotten a lot of these comments already, but I just wanted to state that while I am 100% behind you and your cause, and really respect you for taking a stand, it’s disappointing that you lumped all Christians into the same group of bigots and “spoiled brats.” I’m a senior in high school and a Christian… I also refuse to watch Fox News.. ever, will be voting for Obama in November, and I am all for the separation of church and state. I do not lump Atheists, Agnostics, Jews or Hindus together and I would advise you not to do the same for Christians. “Christian” shouldn’t be a dirty word to you or other Atheists, the same way that “Atheist” shouldn’t be a dirty word to Christians or others. I think you’ll find that many Christians agree with YOU on both this case and others.
By the way, can’t imagine dealing with these creepy, mean-spirited and accusatory comments.. Again, I respect you and your courage a lot, but hope you take my words into consideration!
Wow Jess… A $40,000.00 pay day for “standing up for what’s right”… Pretty impressive for the loner who couldn’t make friends.
Hope you piss a Muslim off next.
Well, what the Muslim might do is not much worse than what many Christians have already threatened her with. As for the scholarship, it wouldn’t even EXIST if many atheists and also a lot of _decent_ people who understand the issues involved, hadn’t been appalled at the treatement Jessica got from so many “Christians,” and chose to contribute when the hat got passed around.
Don’t like the scholarship? You have no one to blame but yourselves. Eat it. With relish.
Yeah that reminds me of this gem of a comment over in the “Christian Love” thread.
http:**jessicaahlquist.com*christian-love*#comment-9865
(replace asterisks with forward slashes)
After being raped, having bibles shoved down her throat (probably the big study bibles, not the little dinky ones with that embarrassing old testament left out), the commenter wants her left for dead.
Why bother pissing off Muslims when there are so many Christians who can be just as vile?
Yes. Because horny little disgruntled teenagers threatening her on this site are the same as jihadists who would hung her down and kill her.
Well let’s find out. Write a blog about Muslims and their extreme religious ways Jess. Let’s see what happens then.
She’s a coward and I hope her $40000.00 helps her sleep at night in her lonely bed. Losers of the world unite!
Man I wish someone would leave the Quran out on display at this same school just to prove my point at how much of a coward you are.
If anyone at this school is a Muslim and sees this, please put the Quran up somewhere so we can a watch out brave little hero turn her unpopular blind eye.
Cliff, you are a real piece of work. I must say I rarely meet someone as oblivious as you are.
“Left on display”? Are you honestly that abysmally clueless about the distinction here between the GOVERNMENT sponsoring a display and a book being left around? What rock have you been sleeping under? No wonder your rantings have made little sense here; you have NO CLUE what this entire issue is about.
You suggest that someone at Cranston High bring in a Koran and “put it up somewhere.”
The ONLY way the case would be parallel is if the administration of Cranston High were to put up an Islamic display, including or not including the Koran is irrelevant. Then… and only then… Jessica would be able to complain about it for the same reason she complained about the prayer banner. And somehow, I suspect you would join me in cheering her on. But for you it’s only wrong if it isn’t a Christian piece of propaganda. You hypocrite.
If “someone” just brings in a Koran, as you suggest, Jessica would have no cause for complaint. For that matter, if “someone” brought in a Bible and put it up, Jessica would ALSO have no cause for complaint. Yet she did have cause to complain about the prayer banner, and her complaint was _upheld_ in federal court. What is the difference? If you can figure out the difference between these cases–and NO it is NOT what religion is being represented–you might finally show signs of a human level of comprehension.
I’ll give you a hint. A big fat hint. It has to do with WHO is setting up the display and endorsing it.
And we won’t even discuss your dismissal of death threats just because they were made by Christians (who, by the way, can actually get to Jessica). They were credible enough for the police, but I guess to you that doesn’t matter.
Steve, I don’t know you, but respect the level of passion and detail you are including in your replies to people with whom you disagree. But I wonder, why the constant name calling and put-downs. Why do you open a reply with, “Cliff, you are a real piece of work. I must say I rarely meet someone as oblivious as you are.” Or: “You know, thcott, this is more passive aggressive bullcrap.”
I don’t see how such language helps a discussion in which some people are trying to be civil.
lol yeah SteveInCO, cut out the name calling, oh crap I just called you by your name. Sorry Randy, but if you want real name calling, look for Sebastian on Media and Christian Love.
[...] even subjected to this ridicule in the first place when you consider as Ahlquist pointed out in her blog the [...]
Funny how the article–and you–fail to mention that the 40 thousand dollars was made up of small donations by the huge numbers of people across the country who believe Jessica did the right thing. She’d NEVER have gotten such a scholarship if she hadn’t been attacked by people like you.
So eat it.
Why the Christian hatred? Your entire blog, which has your name on it, isn’t about you, it’s about hating Christians. Why? You’re 16, don’t you have other concerns than to bash Christians? No other religions either, only Christians. You’re a bigot.
Amen.
Could be because only Christians have threatened her with rape, assault, and other consequences?
Yes. Daily, Christans in robes followed her around school with threats of rape and a torturous death…
No, they just posted on the internet, sent letters to her family. That’s how threats are delivered, and we are talking about threats here. They probably stayed away from the cops that were assigned to escort her at school.
I think the Christmas tree name issue has less to do about Christ and more to do about that he’s trying to change it’s name. Ever see a school try to change it’s mascot’s name? Look at how many people become upset over that. Has very little to do with Christ or Christians. Also I think a lot of people are very tired of the political correct BS. No one minds Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas because there are several holidays back-to-back, but this junk about changing the name of a Christmas tree is just annoying.
Also you’re on this earth for a very short time, there’s no need to be so upset over minor things like this. 10 years from now you’ll look back and thing “why did I was so much time hating Christians??” Just move on, get over it, get a job, get a boyfriend, stop focusing on hate so much. Live and let live. The tree didn’t hurt you, the prayer banner didn’t effect you. Why did you want to piss off so many people? The poor community spent $170,000 fighting you, do you think that will make people like you and your family? It won’t. Really doesn’t matter if you’re right or wrong, what matters is you cost your city $170,000 over something that didn’t hurt you at all. It’s not like you were raped by the police chief and you were trying to fight him in court and protect others, the whole issue was a innocent banner hanging at your school that you wanted taken down. School said no so you sued. School took the smart way out, decided it’s not worth $500,000 more to keep fighting you. I hope you take the smart way and decide to stop trying to piss off the world and just live and let live, there’s bigger concerns in life than prayer banners and christmas trees.
“No one minds Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas because there are several holidays back-to-back”
Actually I hear Christians bitching about it all the time.
“Also you’re on this earth for a very short time, there’s no need to be so upset over minor things like this. ”
Really? Then what the heck are YOU doing here getting upset over this?
“what matters is you cost your city $170,000 over something that didn’t hurt you at all.”
The city cost itself that money, choosing to fight a battle any competent legal counsel could have told them they’d lose. Jessica offered a compromise and they told her “no”
“I hope you take the smart way and decide to stop trying to piss off the world and just live and let live, there’s bigger concerns in life than prayer banners and christmas trees.”
Live and let live? Like the people who threatened to curb stomp her and drop an anchor on her face? Over something that people shouldn’t get upset over?
Double standard! Keeping the banner is nothing to get upset over, taking it down is worth threats of violence. But of course I expect nothing less out of so many of the Christians who come here to trash Jessica.
Also I might point out that while you might have received $40,000 for college from your prayer fight, you will never know how many jobs or friends or groups or other opportunities you have lost when they google your name and find out how sue happy you are and they are afraid to hire you or be friends with you or allow you to attend their college because you might sue them. Because they won’t say “we can’t hire you because you might take us to court”, you just won’t get the job and forever wonder why. And you might think “I didn’t want that job or those friends or to be in that club/group if they are religious” but it’s not about religion, it’s about that you seek reasons to take people to court. Who wants to deal with that? Would you want to be coworkers or friends or have a member that takes people to court for no legitimate reason? Probably not.
You’re also have to wonder every time something happens “is this happening because of that court case?” Bills have extra charges, someone rips you off, teacher grades you unfairly, boss hard on you, coworker hates you, friends leave you, they’re not going to say “I’m treating you like this because of that court case”
Laughable. Ms. Ahlquist’s grievance has been upheld by the law. People contributed to her further education because they were impressed by her courage in standing up for what was right (in the face of threats of bodily harm from professed Christians, no less).
Now that she’s been vindicated, you write this little, petty whine about how that victory casts some sort of shadow over her future. You wish.
Another person mentioning the 40 Large scholarship. Let me point out to you that that 40 K came from a blogger passing the hat to help Jessica out. Why were so many people eager to contribute? Because of all the nastiness heaped on Jessica by a bunch of self-professed Christians who acted, shall we say, very unChristlike. If none of the nastiness–which you can see plenty of right here on this web page, using nothing more than the scroll bar–had happened, she’d have no scholarship.
If you don’t like the fact that she got a scholarship, well, you need to examine yourself and your co-religionists to find out WHY she got it.
Eat it, hatemongers.
Christmas is a holiday of the Christians. If you aren’t Christian and you celebrate Christmas, good for you! It’s a wonderful time to spend with family and friends. However, it’s still CHRISTMAS. December 25 isn’t “Holiday”… The Christmas tree is part of the Christian feast, not the Jewish feast of Hanukkah, nor is it a Kwanzaa tree. It is a Christmas tree, and you can try to change that, but it is what it is. If you feel uncomfortable calling it so, then maybe you shouldn’t even celebrate a Christian holiday in the first place.
Perhaps you should learn a little history from a factual source.
History shows quite clearly and unambiguously that the holiday tree existed long before it was called a Christmas tree just as the holiday time was various festivals and the birth date of Jesus was that of several other deities before Christ was even thought of and they were all co-opted into Christianity.
But hey, wouldn’t want any facts getting in the road of that nice delusion you’ve got going there.
I am a fox hole atheist and I have no problem with the word Christmas or the term ‘Christmas tree’. Like Pat Condell I’ve actually come to expect certain Christmas ‘things’ and it irritates me when other atheists care so much. It’s almost as annoying as those atheists that make excuses for Islam and it’s adherents poor behavior towards women and homosexuals.
Hello, fellow atheist!
Since most of these comments are people getting angry at you and at each other, I just wanted to throw in some encouragement!
I know how tough it is to be an atheist in a small, mostly Christian community. Not knowing what to do when you utter the Pledge of Allegiance (Do I just not say “under God?” or not say the whole thing? HOW can this be constitutional!?), getting invited to church by my boyfriend’s mother who KNOWS I’m an atheist by the way, or even going over to a friend’s house for dinner and fidgeting awkwardly not knowing what to do with myself as they say grace. I don’t really advertise my atheism, although I’m not ashamed by any means. But when people learn I’m an atheist they immediately start looking at me a completely different way. It isn’t always positive.
So what I’m trying to say is that it takes a lot of courage to stand up and say you’re an atheist. It takes even more guts to stand up to your school. And even more to go on national television and argue with Christians who have been trained their entire lives for encounters with people like you.
Good Job!
Just curious to those who don’t believe in god or Jesus……have you ever actually read the bible? I seriously doubt it. I use to argue with Christians all the time acting as foolish as some of you. Until one day I starting reading & researching for myself. PS – John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
I have indeed read the bible, the torah, and the quran. Wonderful books, however there is nothing in them to consider them true, similar to other fantasy books.
Oh great. Someone hat can quote-mine from the worst written, least understood, most self-contradictory book of all time. Congratulations. Can I try?
Isaiah 14:21 – “Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers.” or how about “If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Quoting from a book filled with the vilest behavior of a petulant, angry god doesn’t exactly support your argument.
Reading and actually comprehending the bible is the surest way to discover it has no redeeming qualities and become atheist.
So you find a law about rape (more likely seduction here), a law that restricts the man’s ability to walk away from what he has done (possibly pregnancy). This is the vile behaviour, done by man and not God.
It is God who is against it. And if the father thought the seducer was nothing but a loser, his daughter didn’t have to get married. She had greater rights here than in any equivalent ancient near east culture.
Your first quote concerns divine judgement on an evil culture (Babylon). We live in a fallen world, it’s men who are evil and God who is good – even when warfare is required to stamp out evil that men refuse to turn from, and who would pollute the world with it given the chance.
In the issue of good versus evil, whose side are you on?
Jessica,
I’m from Canada and haven’t really heard that much of this debate until stumbling across a news story referring to this issue. I was unclear about a few things and wanted to ask you a few short questions:
1. You do understand that “Religious Freedom” that was a rockbed of the American Constitution was more about freedom from religious prosecution, than freedom from religion right?
2. If you appear to have a goal of referring to Christmas trees as “holiday trees”, you get that holiday means “Holy Day” and I’m not sure that achieves your goal of stripping the purpose behind the day, were you aware of this?
3. It seems really childish/selfish that a segment of the population can decide that because they don’t want to have any religious reflection on holidays than they should have their way. You’ve called it childish/selfish before regards to Christians wanted to keep their holidays, surely you can see it from another point of view?
Am I wrong about this?
Yes. You are wrong. If these issues were based on any other religion would the Christians simply look the other way? of course not. This is just one of the millions of little battles fought every day to stop America becoming a theocracy. A nobler fight there can not be. Can you “see it from another point of view?”
Hi Jessica,
You said “It’s a holiday tree, grow up already.”
Can’t Christians just say the same thing back at you? It’s our Christmas season – get your own or quit complaining.
I seriously don’t understand why you’re so committed to tearing down something that so many people get joy from. Please explain this to me?
Are you going to start highjacking lent or ramadan? No. Because it is our “religious freedom” to be free to celebrate things they way we want. This time was sent aside to celebrate the birth of Christ – if you don’t care about Jesus then don’t care about Christmas and continue to work/study throughout it..
I know you’re really intelligent but don’t just be argumentative because you can?
WHY are you doing this? Let us be “blind” if you think we are. We have a faith in a higher being. And the majority of Christians are loving people, not crazies that persecute un-believers and try and force them into stuff. Leave us alone.
History shows the holiday tree existed before it was called a Christmas tree just as the holiday time was various festivals and the birth date of Jesus was that of several other deities before Christ was even thought of and they were all co-opted into Christianity.
You can’t claim something should revert back to something it wasn’t in the first place.
Just as you wish everybody be free to practice their religion people should also be free of having your religion shoved down their throats. I notice nobody here mentions that the displaying of the banner or calling a tree Christian is illegal and Christ ordered that men obey the laws of man.
As an atheist, I can only say, get a life and get over it. Or are you that addicted to media attention? One of the virtues of atheism is tolerance – live and let live. If I see a prayer, a Christmas tree, whatever, in a public place, I don’t give a ****. It doesn’t bother me, as long as no one’s shoving it down my throat. All you’ve accomplished, as far as I can see, is to bring ridicule down on atheists. But if you love to play this role, well, then, enjoy your 15 minutes of fame.
That just means you are lazy, uncommitted, apathetic and intellectually dishonest.
As an evangelical (one of those!) I think there is a lot of sense in your post. I’m not that bothered about the presence or absence of this sentimental prayer, but using the coersive power of the state to remove it seems over the top. It would be different if the school were proposing to put a prayer up, but as it was already there, why not just ignore it as you say. It’s hardly ‘shoving religion down someone’s throat’ or a gross violation of rights.
The most absurd aspect of this ridiculous argument is that Christmas has only been associated with Christianity recently and it seems those who use the “anti-America” argument are either poorly educated, or more likely intentionally taught lies that they actually believe America is a Christian nation. I thought Americans were fanatics about American history. You have to admit the modern Christian teaching of revisionist history is incredibly effective.
Keep up the good fight. Good luck in all your endeavours. Try not to let the bigots get you down.
The tradition of a Yuletide tree is heathen in origin anyways. Christianity has adopted and renamed it. In Norway, it’s still called a “Juletre” which has pretty little to do with christianity, name-wise. The name is even based on Yule.
So, some parts of the world find the entire discussion about the christmas tree silly, because we haven’t named the tree after christianity.
I am a very militant & intolerant anti-religion person – I make no apology for having no tolerance or respect for any religion, nor for condoning the forceful (even violent) cessation of all religions (including Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the lot).
However, I have the same view of political correctness – and that’s what this phrase “Holiday tree” is. If I hadn’t read this blog post and someone had mentioned a holiday tree to me, I would have said “WTF? A what?”. It is a joke – you can’t call it a “holiday tree”, it’s just fucking silly. I’ve been an atheist since I was a child (due to not being successfully brainwashed), but still have fond childhood memories of the Christmas tree and all that. There is nothing religious about it for me or my family. Call it what it is commonly known as – a christmas tree.
Christmas is only about Christ for Christians.
But you sort of miss the point. Since “Christmas is only about Christ for Christians” we really shouldn’t have trees in statehouses at all. That amounts to government endorsement of a particular religion. Either call it a holiday tree or better yet don’t have a tree at all. People can call them Christmas trees in their homes, churches or businesses. Just not on public property.
Keep up the good work Jessica! Also, if the haters grow too derp, there’s always Sweden
If they want to include all holidays, get a wreath or something, because, like it or not, it’s a Christmas tree, part of the Christian celebration of Christmas.
christianity is not the first religion to use a tree in its religious practices. There are several different, and older, religions that use a tree during various parts of the year. Please do not think that christianity is unique in this regard.
I still say we should just cut off the top of the tree, call it the “holiday bush” and be done with it, though i know some people will still find some problem with that.
Blake
How exactly does a tree relate to Christianity (or a bunny to Easter)? It doesn’t relate to Christianity at all. The tree was a symbol of the winter solstice and is pagan in origin. Since the tree has no relation to the Christian religion, why do people get so upset about what it is called?
You renamed the Christmas Tree, the ‘Holiday Tree’?
Tell me more about it symbolizes each and every holiday and religion and originated from an omnipotent believer and unbiased point of view.
How about an omnipotent nonbeliever?
Omnipotent believer would cover everything. Cause you could believe in nothing.
Do you mean omniscient?
I do not think it is possible to believe in nothing, assuming you know anything.
The point I was trying to make was that if you do not believe in any of these religions, then you could choose any symbol to represent every holiday. If people can use a tree with decorations on it to symbolize the birth date of the son of a god, then anyone can use any symbol to represent anything.
First of all, the alleged threats are wrong. I don’t agree with you, but neither do I agree with threats of violence. That aside, Christmas is a Christian holiday as the Passover is also a Jewish (also celebrated by Christians) holiday. Recognize its roots.
MLK day is recognized by many blacks and whites of a great man of God who fought not to legislate morality, but to encourage people to love one another. Valentines Day has become more of a romantic night out with really no holiday to it. But it’s funny how Christianity is being attacked, but Muslims are protected as are Jewish people, and other religions like Budhism. Those are okay, but not Christians? We can’t have our celebration? We can’t pray? No one is forcing you to pray. It’s a banner. That’s it.
If someone says, “Happy Holidays,” to me, I don’t get offended. Most people say it out of habit. And as Christians we do have to pick and choose our battles. But have you researched what schools were like before prayer was taken out and God taken from the schools to what students are now?
Just a thought. Anyhoo…that’s all I’m going to write. There’s as much anger and unforgiveness in you as in the people you say are threatening you. Tolerance works both ways.
Wait… tolerance of the people that repeatedly insult Jessica and refuse to hold a civilized conversation? As far as i am concerned the people that are ranting at Jessica and saying hateful things do not deserve my respect or tolerance. Jessica only wanted the pray banner taken out of school as the school is government property and so having the pray banner up on school property was actually illegal. I am fine with religious people praying in public schools, or on the street, or anywhere they want to, so long as they do not force their beliefs on me or make me pray with them. I tolerate Christians, and other religious people, just fine, so long as they do not try to shove their religion down our throats.
I have many religious friends and many of my family members are religious. I respect them and i do not interfere in their ability to practice their religion. At the same time, they do not force me to participate in those ceremonies.
Blake
If they’re throwing such a hissy fit over the fact that the school isn’t calling it a “Christmas” tree, then maybe they shouldn’t have stolen it from the Pagans to begin with.
I was raised Catholic, and always find the movement to rename Christmas trees as Holiday trees to be a joke. Why? Most people who “celebrate” Christmas do so in secular mindset. It’s not Christ’s birthday, nor is the tree a Christ-Mass tree. It’s a tree decorated with blinking lights and tinsel and ornaments and stuff, under which parents can put shitloads of presents for their whiny children.
Holiday Tree? Seriously? Why not let it be a Holiday Tree for those who are offended by “Christmas Tree”, and let it be a “Christmas Tree” for those who are offended by “Holiday Tree.” Simple solution.
hi jessica, you are amazingly brave to stand up to these people. i hope this is only the beginning for you, your case is just one example in the ongoing war between reason and religion, we really need smart and courageous people like yourself to continue the fight back against the religious majority.
the only reason the religious loons are reacting in this way is because they feel under threat, and they have every reason to feel that way, we must move towards a society where people are not gullible enough to fool for the poisonous lies of organised religion.
Oh? You say it’s crazy that atheists do this? You say the constitution says we can’t? Try reading it. It also gives atheists the right to NOT practice a religion, and disallows the forced exercising of religion. I’m an atheist, born a baptist, living just barely north of the ‘bible belt’, in southern Indiana. I go to a private catholic school because it has a good curriculum, but I still, in the schools’ religion classes, am allowed by classmates and teachers to state my opinions. The REAL problem is simply this:
I will compare Europe and the United States’ policies.
UNITED STATES
1. The separation of church and state is supposed to exist
according to the constitution, but I’ve noticed that some
republicans feel that President Obama is:
a. A Muslim
b. evil/a terrorist
They also feel that religion will effect the things that
a politician does in office and vote for candidates with
similar religious views.
EUROPE
2. The moment that a candidate mentions God on the
campaign trail to pander to voters would be the moment
he lost all support, even among the religious, for religion
has no place in politics.
I feel that, while some deliberate insults to christians are terrible things, this banner effects any Islamic, Bhuddist, Xaoist, etc. that comes through the door, and the place of religion in federal areas should be simply internal, at least in the sense that it is not being prominently endorsed by a branch of government. Follow what JFK said. His solution is the best way to improve standings between not just atheists and Christians, but between all religious groups.
P.S.
The video link was, predictably, removed by fox news. (The first video)
Here’s my take- as an atheist myself, I’d be mostly against other atheists freaking out and petitioning to get a public Christmas tree taken down or renamed due to its Christian roots. Mostly because 1) It’s ridiculously pagan, 2) Christmas itself is remarkably secular now, although not totally, and 3) I just don’t have enough of a giveadamner. But if someone DID do this, I wouldn’t yell at them or anything because I’d understand their reasoning. It’s arguably in the strictest sense unconstitutional, but it’s not as big of a target or as important of a one as the Prayer Banner was. The Christmas tree isn’t a permanent fixture. The Prayer Banner was.
But flip this around. The government understands the need to express Roger Williams’ religious freedom ideals by calling it a holiday tree. No atheists told them to do this. NONE. But they did it, on their own, probably in the light of situations and in respect to Roger Williams’ ideals. Yet somehow, people are butthurt, freaking out at the change of name, absolutely frothing at the mouths in Jesus’ name to get that Christmas tree named the way it should be. And more fights with atheists ensue on here and other forums, mostly as a deviation from the real issue. The real issue is, no one should care! You are still free to call it a Christmas tree when you visit it, when you pass by it! Who cares what the public square calls it! The private square can see it as it wants to.